New model 3 free wheeling cylinder?

[Mbrgr1]

On my NM3 I noticed the cylinder freewheels while in the uncocked state, the hand does not engage until the trigger is pulled back, the cylinder stop does not engage until the trigger is pulled.


Is this normal? While working on it to replace thew hammer stud, I don't see how it would work any other way.


Thanks

 

[mmaher94087]

The cylinder stop is trigger actuated. Without seeing the internal trigger - hammer sear interface I'll speculate the trigger sear and/or hammer sears have broken and been filed. The hand only contacts the teeth of the extractor when cocking. Can you take a clear photo of the innards with the side plate off?

 

[Oyeboteb]

On my NM3 I noticed the cylinder freewheels while in the uncocked state, the hand does not engage until the trigger is pulled back, the cylinder stop does not engage until the trigger is pulled.


Is this normal? While working on it to replace thew hammer stud, I don't see how it would work any other way.


Thanks

On mine anyway, the Cylinder will free-wheel Clockwise when the Hammer is at Half Cock...but does not free-wheel anti-clockwise when at Half Cock.

 

[Mbrgr1]

The cylinder stop is trigger actuated. Without seeing the internal trigger - hammer sear interface I'll speculate the trigger sear and/or hammer sears have broken and been filed. The hand only contacts the teeth of the extractor when cocking. Can you take a clear photo of the innards with the side plate off?

So the cylinder stop should pop back up when the trigger is released or the trigger stays further back.


Without a reference, I can't see what is missing, I found a replacement hammer stud from a forum member, so I will be disassembling again to replace, I'll be able to have a better look once I know what is awry.


Thanks

 

[Mbrgr1]

Good grief , I just noticed that the trigger spring screw on the butt changes the action, if I back it off the cylinder stop does stay up after firing, back off too far and it wont fully cock. Is this an adjusting screw??



I guess on most other guns I have the screw is usually tightened fully and does not affect action, or does it!


Or my suspicion that I'm an idiot may be accurate!

 

[Mbrgr1]

Here is the trigger, I'm guessing the sear for the trigger is worn down to the point it will not catch unless I relieve pressure on the mainspring.

 

[Kenny D]

Adjusting Screw, not!

Not an expert, but it is my understanding that this screw should always be all the way in. The real experts will charge to the rescue shortly.

 

[Mbrgr1]

 

[Mbrgr1]

Not an expert, but it is my understanding that this screw should always be all the way in. The real experts will charge to the rescue shortly.

My understanding too until I started fiddling with this old cap gun!

 

[BMur]

Main spring adjustment

What you are referring to is the main spring adjustment screw. That screw is designed to adjust both main spring tension and arc. Both will impact the action negatively if it is not adjusted correctly. Or if the main spring is not an original or if it has been modified or heat treated.

Mike also mentioned wear on both the trigger and hammer. I don't see any significant wear from your hammer photo but more often it's the trigger that wears and causes the condition that you are describing.

All single action revolvers suffer from this common condition. Colts are notorious for trigger wear!

Murph

 

[mmaher94087]

The mainspring screw should be all the way in and tight. It was never designed to be adjustable. Post #8 (photo of the hammer) shows that someone has messed with it. The trigger sear should rest on a slight shelf that keeps the trigger slightly off the cylinder stop locking the cylinder with the hammer down. In this photo, the shelf has been broken/filed off. This shelf acts as described, allows for the rebounding feature and also functions as a half-cock notch. A strong pull on the trigger when in the half-cock notch will break this shelf and allow for the freewheeling you describe. The red arrow points to the location of this shelf. Also in your photo; the full-cock notch looks OK but worn. The test is to slowly pull the hammer back to the full-cock position. The cylinder should lock an instant before the hammer catches. The trigger sear profile appears good. My opinion is that you need a replacement hammer. Welding, re-cutting and hardening the hammer is an option but winning the Lottery is easier.

 

[Mbrgr1]

The mainspring screw should be all the way in and tight. It was never designed to be adjustable. Post #8 (photo of the hammer) shows that someone has messed with it. The trigger sear should rest on a slight shelf that keeps the trigger slightly off the cylinder stop locking the cylinder with the hammer down. In this photo, the shelf has been broken/filed off. This shelf acts as described, allows for the rebounding feature and also functions as a half-cock notch. A strong pull on the trigger when in the half-cock notch will break this shelf and allow for the freewheeling you describe. The red arrow points to the location of this shelf. Also in your photo; the full-cock notch looks OK but worn. The test is to slowly pull the hammer back to the full-cock position. The cylinder should lock an instant before the hammer catches. The trigger sear profile appears good. My opinion is that you need a replacement hammer. Welding, re-cutting and hardening the hammer is an option but winning the Lottery is easier.

Thanks, makes sense now that I can see how it works, I have a very competent gunsmith here in OK, so I will see what he can do, I'll get this old girl back in shape. M

 

[Mbrgr1]

Here is what the hammer should look like in case anyone wants to see what's missing, the tab on mine is completely gone.


Now on the hunt for a replacement.

 

[BMur]

The long way around the barn?

You can do what you want? But I would never replace the original hammer. Adding metal to the guaranteed worn trigger will also solve the nub missing problem. The vast majority of the hammers out there are missing that nub! You gonna replace the trigger too?

Murph

 

[mmaher94087]

Mbrgr1, Excellent photos!! That is exactly what I was talking about. I didn't have photos showing a good hammer. The two hammers I have are broken like yours.

 

[Mbrgr1]

You can do what you want? But I would never replace the original hammer. Adding metal to the guaranteed worn trigger will also solve the nub missing problem. The vast majority of the hammers out there are missing that nub! You gonna replace the trigger too?

Murph

I don't know what I'm doing! (pretty obvious). The last advice was:
"Welding, re-cutting and hardening the hammer is an option but winning the Lottery is easier."


So, I'm just trying to save this old revolver that dropped in my lap, I'll have my gunsmith take a look but he is months backed up.


I appreciate the advice. M

 

[Mbrgr1]

Mbrgr1, Excellent photos!! That is exactly what I was talking about. I didn't have photos showing a good hammer. The two hammers I have are broken like yours.

I stole them from an expired Ebay listing, I wish I could take pics like that!


Thanks, M

 

[BMur]

Gunsmith repair?

I'm sorry,
I didn't see the post on Welding, grinding, and hardening the hammer?

This type of repair is done with an electric welder. Not a gas welder so there is no metal temper loss. If done right it is spot heat that doesn't even impact remaining finish and is as strong as the original metal if not stronger. If anything , it makes the hammer stronger. Not weaker. I actually do welding on parts. Just finished several.

The repair should be focused primarily on the trigger first. I guarantee that the trigger has lost some metal on the tip as they all eventually do. That should be your first focus to repair the condition....Focus on the "Trigger"!!!!!

Leave the hammer alone for now...That's what I would do. Try to compare your trigger to an original...

If you can photo the trigger off the gun I will show you what it should look like with a photo of one with the correct length.

The nub that breaks off the hammer is not where the trigger sets...That part remains on the hammer. It's a keeper to avoid the hammer falling off safety. 90% of the antique guns out there do not have that safety nub remaining but function perfectly.

Murph

 

[mmaher94087]

Mbrgr1, a photo or three of your trigger would make any evaluation of your trigger easier but from your profile photo in post #4; I think your trigger is useable as is. The trigger profile looks like the half-cock notch in the photo of post #13. I guarantee your hammer is bad; hold off on the trigger until you replace the hammer and then you'll know if it needs replacing.

 

[BMur]

Fair assessment?

Just to be fair and properly advise Mark?

If you decide to replace the hammer what you will be facing is a used antique hammer that will require fitting in this antique firearm....Modern guns often swap parts...Antique guns often "do not" swap parts. They require fitting due to them originally being hand fit to each and every gun.

The hammer has multiple points of fitting. The saddle link must be in good shape and not worn...That's the part that contacts the main spring. Pins are often worn. Which will also change the action.

The firing pin must strike the primer when the hammer is at rest in the hammer slot. Often a replacement will not. It must actually be milled to fit the hammer slot. I've done this before. It's not for the faint of heart!

The hand spring must actuate the hand with enough tension to rotate the cylinder...."good luck with a replacement on that one". Often those springs are missing, worn heavily or have week tension which will cause the rotating cylinder to skip lock-up or mal-function in various ways when working the action.

And finally, the position and condition of the replacement hammer sear notches must be better than yours? Remember, most out there are worn and missing that nub.

We haven't even touched on how much a functioning replacement hammer will cost? They aren't cheap.

So, like anything else in life, it's up to you.


****By the way, there is another factor here that we are not considering? You may also have a re-bounding type main spring.. Does the hammer stay all the way down against the hammer slot? Or does it pull away (rebound?)

Murph