New Model 3 Frontier 44-40

[stanmerrell]

Well, mystery is finally solved. Turns out to be a happy ending too. 44-40. Serial numbers all match. None on the cylinder though. Not sure why. There is end play and I'm wondering if it can be taken out by a smith? b/c gap is decent. Seller was from Michigan, but could not learn anything about him. All in all very pleased. Look forward to any thoughts and comment.

 

[steelslaver]

Neat, gun. The old top breaks are pretty interesting. I finally just had to get one.

Are you going to make it go bang?

 

[stanmerrell]

Bang

Thanks Steel,

Yeah, I do want to make it go bang. Looking around for suitable smokeless (slow burning) load data now. Will post a target and S&W letter when they come.

 

[Masterpiece]

Well, mystery is finally solved. Turns out to be a happy ending too. 44-40. Serial numbers all match. None on the cylinder though. Not sure why.

Stan,

Very happy to hear it ended up being chambered as a .44-40...As I'm sure you are!!

As to why my earlier initial assessment was to assume it was .44 Russian is because most Cylinders chambered for .44-40 do not have as much of a pronounced shelf as yours shows...Although I do own a few chambered for .44-40 that do!!

Most often there isn't much more of an indication being a .44-40 than a subtle transition in the chamber where it necks down that...More Often Than Not...Can barely be seen!!

Sorry I don't have much of an explanation for you though as to why the Cyl. lacks a Serial No.!! Possibly it was missed being stamped in the Initial Production Process...Or the Cylinder may even have been replaced somewhere in the course of it's use over the years...Likely a question that will never be answered!!

 

[glowe]

From your pictures, I would guess that cylinder did not start out as a 44-40. All I have seen, including the ones I have owned and do own, show quite clearly 2 steps in the cylinder. The first is for the bottleneck in the brass and the second is where the bullets seats into the casing.

One other point is that the best type of smokeless powder to replicate black powder pressure curves is a very fast burning powder. Shotgun powders usually make very good reloads using powders like Clay, Unique, Red Dot, Bullseye, etc. slow burning powders will build to very high pressures and are most often used in rifles and magnum shotgun powders.

My favorite reloading recipes for top-break revolvers usually involve the use of Clays powder or Trail Boss. I try to keep the bullets light and the speeds around 700 fps.

 

[stanmerrell]

Reloading

Thanks Gary,
I had thought maybe the cylinder was a replacement as it is unserialed. All the 44-40's I have seen, mostly Colts, have the two steps. I'm going to get a letter and take some measurements on the cylinder as that may shed some light.

I have read that slow burning powders like 5744 are less stressful than fast burning powders like Unique on the blackpowder guns. I'm still studying this and will consider your suggestion. Many thanks.

 

[Masterpiece]

I would guess that cylinder did not start out as a 44-40.

Gary,

After posting what I did earlier I decided to do some checking on a few of mine...I also now agree the OP's Cyl. likely started out being chambered for 44 Russian & a .44-40 Reamer was run through it so it would chamber a .44-40!!

I have since sent a PM to the OP to note what I found & to see if he'd take some accurate measurements from the Rear Face of His Cyl. to the Shelf to confirm if what I now suspect was done!!

If he agrees to do so I'll post both his & my findings!! I'll also try to give a full assessment as to why I believe this has been so confusing to figure out!!

Now as to what you've noted as far as clearly being able to see two steps in the Cyl. Chambers on .44-40 Cylinders...All I have the 1st Step is barely noticeable only showing a subtle transition from where the Cartridge Bottleneck begins with the 2nd Step where the bullet seats being the only one that's clearly defined!!

 

[Masterpiece]

All I have seen, including the ones I have owned and do own, show quite clearly 2 steps in the cylinder.

Gary,

I just took a couple quickie photos to show you what I was referring to that the Bottleneck Step is hardly noticeable whereas the 2nd Step where the Bullet is seated into the Case is well defined!!

Curious to know if the Chambers in yours look to be the same...Or are they notably different??

 

[glowe]

Good close-ups. The dimensions of a 44-40 show the same step-down from the shoulder to the neck as from the neck to the bullet - .014" The shoulder measures .457", the neck measures .443", and the bullet measures .429". I think the reason why the first step looks shallow is that it is a transitional zone whether than a sharp step where like where the case ends.

The OPs cylinder looks like it was simply bored the length of the 44-40 case - 1.305". The gun will function, but blow-back around the case may get things dirty quick and I wonder if the cylinder was straight bored to .471"+?

 

[glowe]

I have read that slow burning powders like 5744 are less stressful than fast burning powders like Unique on the blackpowder guns. I'm still studying this and will consider your suggestion. Many thanks.

I probably should have clarified what I meant by "fast". The fastest smokeless powder can be loaded to match the pressure curve of black powder from chamber to muzzle. Fast powders like Clays, loaded to the same chamber pressures as BP, demonstrate the same pressure curve as black powder throughout the length of the barrel. Unfortunately, there is not much documented testing in short barreled guns. Most testing has been done with shotguns and longer barreled rifles.

Again, the most important thing is to load light and slow.

 

[Masterpiece]

I wonder if the cylinder was straight bored to .471"+?

Gary,

It's unlikely the Chamber was straight-bored to the Base Dia. of a .44-40 Cartridge given the Defined Step exhibited in His Cylinder looks to be approx. where the Step/Shelf would be if it started out as a 44 Russian...Had it been straight-bored to .471" that Shelf should be nonexistent unless you mean being straight-bored to .471" up to the Shelf!! If so...That's certainly a possibility!!

More likely scenario is they ran a .44-40 Reamer through it & what we're seeing is the end result given the Nominal Dia. of a .44-40 Cartridge very near the point where the Bottleneck starts to transition is very close to the End Dia. of a 44 Russian Case at that point...Very hard to determine exactly what we're seeing without having the Cylinder in-hand!!

He did get back to me & has agreed to have some measurements taken although it may be a bit until he can get some help accomplishing this...I'll post an update with the results as to what they came up with when he gets back in touch!!

 

[glowe]

. . . unless you mean being straight-bored to .471" up to the Shelf!! If so...That's certainly a possibility . . .

Yup - that is what I was referring to, but every time I look at the pictures, something else keeps popping up. Now that I compare the OPs pictures to yours, the "shelf" looks to be in the location of the shoulder and not the end of the case at 1.305". I now think the mouth shelf is missing?? If so, that would mean the cylinder is bored too large from the shoulder to the front face of the cylinder.

All I know for sure is there is something wrong with the way that cylinder was bored out. Guess we will have to wait.

 

[Masterpiece]

Now that I compare the OPs pictures to yours, the "shelf" looks to be in the location of the shoulder and not the end of the case at 1.305". I now think the mouth shelf is missing?? If so, that would mean the cylinder is bored too large from the shoulder to the front face of the cylinder.

All I know for sure is there is something wrong with the way that cylinder was bored out. Guess we will have to wait.

Gary,

All of the things you made mention of above I noticed as well & is what prompted me to contact him to see if he'd take some critical measurements to confirm my suspicions...Mainly the depth from the Rear Face of the Cyl. to the Shelf as well as the Throat Dia. to see if we can figure this out!! Like you said...Guess we'll have to wait to see what he comes up with!!

 

[stanmerrell]

Measurements

Well, she's all 44-40. No more doubt in my mind. My buddies pin gauges were all the wrong size so I bought a quality caliper and took some basic measurements that confirmed she is not a convert. She is pure 44-40 all the way through. Some other gents told me you don't always see 2 prominent steps in a 44-40 chamber, so I guess they were right. Anyway here's some of data. Length to the first step is about right in both directions. Diameter is right also. Thanks for the advice on this. When my brass came it and I started dropping a case into the chamber I became real certain it was all 44-40. Very close fitting brass. Here's the pictures:





It was great having an excuse to buy another tool. I would like to back the cylinder screw out a little to take up some of the end shake. Any thoughts on that? Looks like I need to make a special screwdriver to do it.

 

[mmaher94087]

"I would like to back the cylinder screw out a little to take up some of the end shake." Backing off the screw will loosen the extractor star. Have you put a full cylinder of shells in it and checked the end shake? I doubt the end shake would drastically affect the accuracy. I've been wrong before; I just don't fix what isn't broke.

 

[stanmerrell]

Thanks Mike,
Yeah, I mean overall the B/C gap is about 12 mils so it's nothing to worry about. It's just that about 7 mils of it is shake. I've heard those screws move differently than normal screws and wondered about it. Thanks for your interest.

 

[Masterpiece]

Well, she's all 44-40. No more doubt in my mind.

.

Hi Stan,

After taking note to the measurement of the Chamber Throat in your above photo...I finally dug out the only NM#3 I hadn't previously checked chambered in .44-40...(Also a .44 Frontier)...I'm now starting to lean more towards the possibility...Though still not completely convinced...If that Cylinder is "Most Definitely" the original to Your Revolver when shipped...It possibly may have left the Factory originally chambered for a .44-40 Cartridge!!

Reason being...At some point in time...It looks as though S&W may have used a Different .44-40 Reamer to chamber some of these Frontier SA Revolvers...(Note the Photo I've attached)!!

As an aside...This is the "Only" No.3 Model Revolver I own...(Single or Dbl.-Action)...Having a .44-40 Chamber exhibiting only one Shelf...All the others have Two...The one near the center of the Chamber being very subtle at the Transition Point of where the Cartridge starts to Bottleneck & the other near the Frt. of the Chamber being somewhat sharp as it shows in the Photos I posted earlier!! Also...The Chamber Throat measurement on mine is very near the same as Yours!!

I'll also note...The photo was taken of the Cylinder in a Very High "Original Condition" Frontier NM#3 Single-Action!! As you can see the Chamber looks to be very near in appearance as to what yours looks to be as well...The only exception being the transition into the Bottleneck Area looks to have a much less Defined Shelf on mine at that point compared to yours!!

Of course...Regardless of what I've now noted...I suppose the only somewhat definitive way of knowing with "Any" degree of certainty...Regardless of a few things that still don't sit well with me...Is to see if Roy's Letter states it shipped chambered in .44-40 when it arrives...Good Luck!!

 

[mrcvs]

Thanks Steel,

Yeah, I do want to make it go bang. Looking around for suitable smokeless (slow burning) load data now. Will post a target and S&W letter when they come.

There is no suitable smokeless powder load for this old gal! Black powder ONLY, my friend!

 

[Skeetr57]

The above statement is pure nonsense. There is no reason not to use smokeless powder in a cartridge revolver if pressures are kept to the same level as the original loads. In actuality, current factory smokeless loads will be safe if the gun is in good condition. Factory loads are kept down to BP pressures because most of the guns that are chambered in .44-40 are not as strong as modern guns. For example, the Winchester 1873 and the Colt Lightning rifle are not very strong.

 

[mrcvs]

The above statement is pure nonsense. There is no reason not to use smokeless powder in a cartridge revolver if pressures are kept to the same level as the original loads. In actuality, current factory smokeless loads will be safe if the gun is in good condition. Factory loads are kept down to BP pressures because most of the guns that are chambered in .44-40 are not as strong as modern guns. For example, the Winchester 1873 and the Colt Lightning rifle are not very strong.

No, not pure nonsense at all! General "rule of thumb" is that one should generally avoid smokeless powder in anything pre-1899, which this revolver is, and use with caution in anything up to about 1905 or 1910.

However, from Gunsmithing Guns of the Old West, copyright 2001 by David R Chicoine, the author discusses "Black powder or Smokeless?", beginning on page 20, and creates, in bullet format, a synopsis of ten categories of firearms that are, in his words, "On the never use smokeless list" (pp.21-22). Following the fourth bullet, on page 22, reads the following: "All the large frame, Model Number Three Smith & Wesson top break revolvers."

Pure nonsense indeed?

As always, not sure of the extreme prejudice against black powder all the time. Seems little more than laziness, as there is a bit more to clean up after than smokeless powder.