New Model 3 target front sight blades

[bcowern]

What types of front sight blades were available from the factory for the New Model 3? Tried a google search and Forum search with no luck.

I have two Model 3's with non-rebounding hammers and adjustable rear target sights but the front sight blades are slightly different.

One has a distinct bead and the other appears to be a post. Viewed from the side both sights are flat, not rounded like the more common front sight.

Regards,
bcowern

 

[BMur]

Several

I know there were several. Here are two From an early ad circa about 1907. There was also a tall square blade and I have a special order front sight that I believe is factory with an elevation screw milled into the barrel. I'll post a photo later.

Murph

 

[rct269]

You very likely are going to be sorry you asked, because there are a bunch! I can write all of them down, but a more meaningful listing can be had if you can tell me when these guns were shipped. And if you cannot, no problem.

The easy stuff first: The sight on the larger illustration in Murph's post is the Paine Black Bead, and I have no idea about the little one----because it's too little. The Paine Black Bead is the standard target front on break-opens from the beginning (1878) to 1905---and available on order (on break-opens) until the last break-open with target sights (whatever that was) was dropped in 1923. (It was also the standard front on hand ejector targets from 1896 to 1905----and available on order until 1942.)

Now----Plan C will appear in a PM in the interest of my time---and wear and tear on my delicate little fingers.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[BMur]

A few more

Ralph is much more knowledgeable on this subject than I am but I just wanted to input a few more items of interest.

Photo from an 1892 catalog showing different variations of the Paine front sight.

Also, from my collection a special order New Model 3 in 44 Russian, Gold Plated, Factory Engraved, Factory Pearl grips, and Factory special order front and rear sight that I have never seen before. This was one of about 30 guns manufactured by Smith & Wesson for Target shooters that included Annie Oakley in about 1893. I still need to letter mine...I'll get to it one day.

**** Notice the front sight has no pin? Also the small screw on the front of the barrel? It will elevate and lower the sight with a turn to the left or right....I've never seen another like it.


Murph

 

[bcowern]

Thanks to all who have replied.

The NM3 with the post front sight was shipped in 1903. The NM3 with the bead front sight was shipped in 1896. I will try to post some more pics tomorrow. For now here is a pic of the post sight.

Regards,
bcowern

 

[rct269]

Another easy one, and my all time favorite (simply because it is the same thickness throughout and therefore absolute child's play to make yourself). It is known as the Thin Round Top Blade------applied to break-opens on order from 1905 to 1923; and the standard target front on all hand ejectors from 1905 to 1923; and continuously available on order up to 1942. (As an aside, it is commonly found on top-break single shots (1st/2nd/early 3rd)----the bad news being it's very thin in that frame size----.040" as I recall.)

The applicable cop-out clause when we find this sight (and some others) on guns outside the supposed dates of usage is the research material for all of the target sight material was acquired by observation (there being virtually no factory records on sight usage). Jinks explains this thus: "This is not a surprise as many of what the foreman considered as minor changes is not recorded." My only comment is "Don't sweat the small stuff."

Ralph Tremaine

 

[bcowern]

Here are a few pics of the front sights on my NM 3's.

Interesting front sight Murph.

"**** Notice the front sight has no pin? Also the small screw on the front of the barrel? It will elevate and lower the sight with a turn to the left or right....I've never seen another like it."

Is the rear sight also adjustable for elevation?

Regards

 

[BMur]

Special order front/rear sights

Actually B. Cowern,
I made an error in my evaluation of the front sight screw? I remember turning it a while ago and saw the sight move up so I thought it had some sort of worm gear arrangement? but actually it is just a keeper..... or set screw to hold the front sight in place.

I remember reading an interview with Ira Paine and he claimed that the best target shooters would carry with them at the range multiple front sights....I can see now how he could have easily changed them out at the range. You back out the screw and the sight can be removed or replaced? Once you install a new sight you screw down on that front screw to "set" the front sight firmly into the barrel.....Sorry for the mistake......I've never seen one before so it's a learning curve I guess.

The rear sight has the same elevated feature shown in the catalog photo I posted? However, it also has a large screw on either side of the rear sight to adjust for windage....That is unique I think.

I really need a letter on this one.

Murph

 

[rct269]

SPECIAL ORDER FRONT/REAR SIGHTS

"That is unique I think." (BMur)

You think right-----most certainly as is applicable to a NM #3-----at least as far as I know------and as far as I know the first (and only) rear sight screw adjustable for windage for any top break is that which appears on the 3rd Model Single Shot (and its parent revolver)----1909. That said, I should add the first/only S&W rear sight, which is to say I suppose it (yours) could be an aftermarket creation-----likely a one-off creation by a gunsmith. I've always thought that to be odd, considering the hand ejector targets were blessed with screw adjustable windage right from the get-go-----1899.

I suppose there's nothing odd about it from a purely business point of view----why devote any effort/assets to a dying breed----at least a dying breed from our point of view---with our flawless 20/20 hindsight (?).

It at least now appears S&W's initial efforts (and perhaps those of the entire industry as far as I know) with target related development were an afterthought. That's based on the absence of any significant records maintained by the factory. Jinks once offered this as an explanation: "This is not a surprise as many of what the foreman considered as minor changes is not recorded." I don't remember if I've ever been told one way or the other, but I've always supposed "the foreman" to be the plant manager----someone of weight---gravitas. Whatever or whoever, he/they made the study of S&W target sights a daunting task---even for me/us now---coming in after all the real grunt work is already done.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[BMur]

Target Shooters

Ralph,
Here are a couple photo's of the rear sight. The sight does have a matching number on the two piece latch. Also, notice the two screws "and" the internal lateral slide to allow for windage adjustment "with" a very small locking screw on top? How's that for unique?

I'm convinced it's factory work. Again, these guns were part of a very small "special order" of "Factory Engraved", "Factory Pearl grips", "Factory Target sights", and "GOLD PLATED"... The group of guns was a special order placed for "TARGET SHOOTERS"....That's a direct quote from a couple factory letters that I have already researched.

The Annie Oakley gun is also in this serial number range and I believe it was part of this special order since it is basically identical to the very unique configuration mentioned...See photo..

I wish I knew more about this special order.
I'm speculating here but I believe that each of the target shooters had their order tailor made to their specific details....How this transpired? Why? and Why all gold plated? All in the 1892 timeframe.... Likely the result of a get together at some shooting contest or event? Who knows?

Murph.

 

[rct269]

Well get a letter and whatever miscellaneous paperwork you can from the Historical Foundation-------and here's hoping you fare better than I did on the 22/40 given to Philip B. Sharpe.

I absolutely, positively KNEW there would be a ton of paperwork on a gift---had to be!! There was exactly one piece--------the invoice---charging off the cost of the gift to the Advertising Account----mumble grumble mumble mumble------

Ralph Tremaine

 

[mmaher94087]

I'm not a fan of gold plated anything on revolvers and I own a few. The plating is too soft and a cursory wipe down can remove the plating fast. New looking, these are beautiful but after 100 years of careful wiping they look like fish chum.

I recommend a letter also. Interesting revolver with several questions that (hopefully) a letter might answer. I feel that the "improvements" might be factory but I also suspect that factory records will be silent as they only wanted to make a profit selling revolvers and unique part was lost in the wash.

 

[BMur]

Found another

I located another NM3 with the same sight configuration. Mine is also British proofed like this one.
This one photo'd was sent to an Olympic Gold metal winner by the name of Walter Winans.
Shipped February 26,1890 from the factory and delivered to Mr. Winans in London.
This one is chambered in 45 Eley.
Notice the front sight lacking the barrel Sight pin and if you look closely you can see the screw sticking out the front of the barrel.

The rear sight is also identical to mine. You can see the tiny screw on top. With the same rear sight.

So maybe mine was also sent to this person?

Murph

 

[mrcvs]

So maybe mine was also sent to this person?

No sense speculating. Get a letter!

 

[BMur]

Historical Letter

Alright, I'll get a letter.....Last thing I want is Ian to be mad at me......."again"....


Here are a few photo's....I think it looks better than fish chum but a lot of the original gold finish is gone...Only shades remaining...Definitely factory engraved/pearl/target sights and was once gold plated.

Murph

 

[Kinman]

Here is what mine has, which appear to be standard.

 

[mmaher94087]

Murph, the pix of the recoil shield is why I don't care for gold wash. The overall photos of the revolver are spectacular though. Nice revolver.

 

[Kinman]

Murph, the pix of the recoil shield is why I don't care for gold wash. The overall photos of the revolver are spectacular though. Nice revolver.

I couldn't agree more...

 

[bcowern]

Is the revolver in post #10 and post # 11 silver plated under the gold wash?

Regards

 

[BMur]

Gold Plated

Bcowern,
The guns in this special order are "Gold Plated". See factory letters below. Since the Gold Plate is mostly worn off of my gun I see no other plating left...It's basically in the white now...

The Conlin gun photo'd was also part of this special order from "famous target shooters". That's Roy Jinks wording, as was the Annie Oakley gun as mentioned....Photo'd is multiple factory letters on the same gun (The Conlin Gun). Letters date from 2016 and 2018... Sold at RIA...You can look it up.

He was also a target shooter and had a Gallery in New York City during the 1880-1890's timeframe when these guns were ordered. Right in the middle of town! Close to Grand Central Station!! Times sure have changed!!

I don't know the details but obviously these "famous target shooters" got together and placed the order at basically the same time for some unknown reason(Circa 1892). Notice also different calibers were ordered as well...So, a very significant event in my mind.

Very interesting piece of history but also a very allusive event. I'm looking but not much out there right now. The Annie Oakley gun is identical (her serial number is less than 80 digits off Conlins)

The "Claim" is that Frank Butler, her husband, ordered the gun for her as well as 2 other gold plated target guns. One is a model 1 S&W single shot in 38 cal. The other is a Stevens target gun.(later manufactured guns)

There is "NO" factory letter that I know of backing that up from Smith & Wesson. So as far as I am concerned it's not a supported story...Someone should get a letter for Annie Oakley's guns also...That might help clear the air. They couldn't have been ordered at the same time since the model 1 single shot wasn't "introduced" until 1893.

The Conlin gun was actually sent to him in New York but if you read the letters? the invoice no longer exists so the details are sketchy. That's the full extent of what I have researched....

My theory? I think a bunch of them got together and decided to order these guns at the same time in lieu of some unknown event. Probably some target shooting event at that same time frame. The Annie Oakley gun seems to "overshadow" this event into obscurity. Which is unfortunate.

Murph