New Model No.3 "as used at Bisley"

[TripleLock]

Doing a search within this forum I came across this ad (date and source not stated) illustrating the New Model No.3. The larger illustration, noted as P 1484, appears to be the "standard" target model of the NM3, complete with Paine front sight and the regular adjustable target rear sight. It was the illustration at the upper right of the "Bisley Regulation Back Sight", however, that interested me most as I have in my possession a NM3 with precisely that same sight and which is virtually identical to the revolver identified as P 1485... complete with the distinctive "shark fin" front sight.

My revolver, serial no. 34022, shipped August 5, 1903, to Charles Osborne & Co., Birmingham, England, and is chambered for the .450 Revolver (aka .450 Adams, or .450 Eley) cartridge which was popular on the ranges at Bisley from the 1870s and into the years preceding WWI, and it bears marks on the barrel, cylinder, and frame from the Birmingham proof house. The letter for this revolver states it shipped with 8 inch barrel, adjustable target rear sight, blue finish, and checkered walnut grips. No mention of the front sight is made. The letter indicates that this revolver was one of a shipment of 12 identical revolvers. Serial numbers match on the butt, rear of the cylinder, underside of the extractor, rear of the barrel, underside of the barrel catch, and inside the right stock panel. Measuring the barrel, I find it to be 7-1/2 inches, which I originally questioned. However, the muzzle is properly crowned, the rib stops just where the radius of the crown meets the O.D. of the barrel, and the barrel address marking is perfectly centered between the front sight and the beginning of the top strap. An inquiry was made to Roy Jinks regarding the barrel length, and it is his opinion that the barrel is, indeed, as it originally left the factory and that the information was incorrectly recorded by the shipping clerk who, as he said, never actually saw the revolver before it shipped, but merely recorded the "standard" length. It is also notable that Bisley regulations allowed a barrel of no more than 7-1/2 inches.

I have included a composite image of my NM3 with the Bisley rear sight and P 1485 revolver superimposed for comparison, and additional images of the rear sight. The sight is adjusted by means of loosening a small screw on the underside of the barrel catch then drifting the blade to the left or right and tightening the screw to secure it. The final image is one I took after I had assembled a few appropriate cartridges, made from shortened .455 MkII cases, a 226 grain hollow base bullet, and an appropriate charge of BP. The original cartridge was loaded with 13 grains of BP, but with modern cases the most I could manage was 10 grains.

Jim

 

[rct269]

Between my meager knowledge of the Bisley Match rules and your description of your sight, I take it the sight is adjustable for windage only------yes?

Ralph Tremaine

 

[TripleLock]

Yes. As required by Bisley rules, the rear sight is adjustable for windage only.

Jim

 

[H Richard]

I don't believe the Bisley reg's allowed any adjustment for either windage or elevation.

 

[TripleLock]

Bisley rules regarding rear sights did allow for windage adjustment, but not elevation. At least that was true c.1903/04. What was not allowed was adjusting the sight once the competitor was at the firing station.

Some competitors, such as Walter Winans, often had several revolvers, identical but for varying height of rear sight blades, on hand to compensate for shooting conditions. Winans wrote about this, as well as Bisley res of the day, in his 1904 book "Hints on Revolver Shooting."

Jim

 

[BMur]

Arsenal Altered

I posted that book reference to the NM3 Bisley target guns on an earlier thread.
After studying these “British” sights I firmly believe that these guns were Arsenal altered, often heavily, by wealthy target shooters in England upon receipt from Smith & Wesson.
They often have custom sights that are not seen on American shipped target guns and the configuration often does not match factory records!
I think it’s time we start embracing the concept that these guns were professionally altered at arsenals, heavily proof marked, specifically for wealthy target shooters of that era.

Several are even proven to have been caliber altered. I don’t think money or cost to professionally alter these guns was an issue for these “elite” club members!

Murph

 

[rct269]

The only examples I've seen, and held in my hands, have been pre-war N frame somethings (I don't recall what.). One, and only one, had a sight that made any sense to speak of---which is to say it could be moved simply by whacking it with something---or banging it against the bench---which is to say the sight protruded from the side of the frame. All the others had sights flush with the frame at the sides---and would require using a punch---and securing the gun with your third hand. I suppose one could whack those sights on the upper portion of the blade, but the thought of that pretty much made my teeth hurt. None of those I've seen were documented as factory installations. The primary dealer who had these things from time to time noted most all of them came to him from California---------and supposed they came to be in that configuration in California. (???)

Jinks made a somewhat vague mention of Triple Locks fitted with what I took to be Bisley sights when I'd asked about how many 7 1/2 inch TL's were fitted with target sights--------thus: "The number of these revolvers with target sights is difficult to estimate. It is my opinion that between 250 and 500 were completed with 7 1/2 inch barrels and some type of target sight." That "some type of target sight" is what I took to refer to Bisley sights-----simply because nothing else came to mind.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[rct269]

Now that you've made me look, there is a S&W sight adjustable for windage only treated in Bob Neal's 1977 Arms Gazette article (The Evolution of Smith & Wesson Target Sights). Its only relationship to the sight pictured here is it too was fitted to NM #3's. It differs markedly in that windage is adjustable in the same fashion as with the usual (first) top break target sight-----loosen the screws securing the blade retaining plate, and move the blade. Neal notes this sight was applied to either the NM #3 or the NM #3 Target in 38-44 caliber.

What Neal notes requires a bit of explanation: The research for this article was done by observation (in view of the fact there are virtually no records of target sights retained by the factory). In other words, if he or his legion of helpers didn't lay eyes on a particular sight on a given gun it isn't treated in the article. So---the sight we have here in this thread may or may not have come from Springfield. The fact there was a factory sight available for NM #3's et al, adjustable for windage only, at least suggests the sight we have here is of the home brew variety------or the sight we have here predates the windage adjustable only sight shown in Neal's article. The fact the catalog pages shown here don't show any screws securing a retaining plate suggests either there weren't any---or the folks doing the art work were a bit lazy----or the folks paying them to do the art work were somewhat of the tightwad genre.

As for me, I try to avoid engaging in discussions with no possible definitive outcome. (Edited to add, no possible definitive outcome (other than to come up with another top break revolver fitted with the exact, same sight as we've seen here)-------and anything is possible---even somewhat likely-----sometime---somewhere----somehow----and I deem it to be somewhat likely based entirely on the fact this sight here has a set screw-----and all the other drift adjustable for windage sights I've seen don't. They relied on good, old fashioned friction----which is both expedient----and more than a little bit crude----hardly in keeping with anything I know of coming from Springfield---except for plastic autoloaders.)

Ralph Tremaine

 

[BMur]

Arsenal Alterations

London sent guns are actually clearly documented if we have an open mind and perform clear research. Colts as an example sent to London (Pall Mall) are often found refinished and altered professionally by very large and respected firms like B&Adams, Tranter, Webley &Sons to mention a few. Then proof fired and view stamped.( see old drawing)
Huge, professional, facilities that were well versed at altering, caliber conversion and the most common from my research was updating cap & ball arms to centerfire cartridge. Collectors often insisting that they are original cartridge because the conversion process was done so well.
Their bluing process was superior to U.S. firms and their disciplined proofing process basically eliminated poor quality guns from hitting the market. Unlike the U.S.
If you have an open mind and not set in stone on “ Factory original”! You can recognize London bluing. Put on your 60 power loop and you can actually see alterations to sights. Extremely well done.
I’ve documented Colt Rimfire revolvers shipped to London in Rimfire caliber and now support centerfire design. Close examination reveals machine filling of the Rimfire slot, machining to centerfire and replacing the Rimfire hammer with an original Colt centerfire hammer. The work being impeccably done.

Murph

 

[mrcvs]

How desirable is a Charles Osbourne shipped, or other British location shipped Model 3, with British proofs, in .450 Adams, .450 Eley, or .455 Eley? I have one and really like the fact its destination is the United Kingdom. Others might not due to the fact it cannot be Old West and/or the numerous proofmarks are a cosmetic retraction.

Thoughts?

 

[BMur]

Rare bird

I think they are very historic and rare target guns that were very likely shot/ used in famous matches over 100 years ago among the best of the best in the world at the time. It’s even possible a Person of royalty actually shot the gun at a major world wide shooting event. I’m actually surprised we never see members/ collectors from the UK comment on those events in more detail.

Murph

 

[Club Gun Fan]

This was Walter Wessons 38/44, serial number 3405. According to Roy, he showed it in Paris and the Bisley shoots. It shows no signs of being fired.