New Pistol Reviews and Accuracy Rant

[Beauetienne]

I miss the days when pistols reviewers saw it as important to rate accuracy at 25 yards. Every time I read a review about 7 or 10 yard groups from a mid-size or full size pistol I throw up a little in the back of my throat.

These days it seems that 'practical' or 'combat' accuracy are a priority to reviewers. I accept that with smaller pistols used for concealed carry the short range results are important, but it seem to apply to all pistol reviews these days.

Not being a LEO or in the service, I want a pistol that will shine in a self defense role and will be an accurate paper puncher beyond 10 yards, too. Gongs are fun and are fine for fast firing, but they tell me less about the pistol and more about the expertise of the shooter doing the review. Would it be counter productive to make an old man happy with some 25 yard results ?

I guess at 60 years old and having watched the evolution of semi-auto pistols since the '70's, I have a different outlook that the younger guys do.

I figure that if a pistol handles well and shoots nice groups at 25 yards it will do just fine at 7 yards.

I feel better now Thanks

 

[rockquarry]

You make a good point and I wholly agree, but your comments will not interest many as they don't see a need. Some will expend the time and effort necessary to shoot well from a benchrest or offhand; most won't. The people who put together the reviews are no different.

 

[hobby-gunsmith]

new pistol reviews

You have to realize that most of the self defense situations are between 3 to 5 yards. Yes, I know the firearm should be able to reach out at 25 yards or more. However, if you are dead on or on close proximity of the target, the shot will be the same at the 25 yard line. Nothing changes as far as sight picture or sight alignment or trigger pull, and most of the times it is shooter induced as perceived by the mental attitude that the target is beyond the target range. Bullet drop is negligible from the 3 yard to 25 yard line. Again, most of the time at the 25 yard range, the target is either moving or withdrawing from the situation and or not confronting the situation at the three or five yard encounter and is something to think about if involved in a shooting confrontation.

Nick

 

[WardenRoss]

Interesting thoughts

Whenever I buy a new pistol, I head out the my friend's little firing range on his farm. He is a retired O6 and great with pistols. We have a blast shooting a bullseye at 25 yards to test the new pistol.

Sometimes we have a nay and not a yea. That new pistol may not do well at the 25 yard bullseye. It may not compare well with our older stuff, say a SIG P220 or Colt Gold Cup. Whatever.

That said, I have to qualify on a combat pistol course at work. That same new pistol that was poor at the bullseye may do well on a quick, fast draw, timed, point and shoot, combat course where you don't have time to aim.

Point is, different strokes for different folks.

 

[M29since14]

...I figure that if a pistol handles well and shoots nice groups at 25 yards it will do just fine at 7 yards.

I feel better now Thanks

I couldn’t agree more. Any full-size pistol at least should be tested at 25-yards from a benchrest, and target pistols should be tested at fifty, from a Ransom rest. I couldn’t care less what any full-size pistol does at 7-yards. (I can understand testing small, self-defense type pistols at 10-yards.)

I understand your gripe and now I feel a tiny bit better, too. The dumbing-down of accuracy expectations seems to have gone hand-in-hand with plastic pistols and high-capacity magazines.

 

[rockquarry]

It seems you can't get into the subject of handgun accuracy without the "gunfights occur up close" clause followed with gunfighting/courtroom theory paranoia.

One can become a better shooter (even up close) by learning to shoot offhand at distances well beyond a few yards. Evaluating a handgun by group shooting at 25 or even 50 yards from a good benchrest using good technique will also tell far more about a gun and ammo than doing the same work up close.

 

[LVSteve]

This is an interesting thread. It wasn't that long ago that I saw folk griping online that 25 yard tests were not representative. This was especially true as more and more different styles of gun appeared, many of which do not fit a Ransom rest because there are no suitable inserts.

I have noted recently that American Rifleman has got away from 25 yard tests on many fullsize guns, with 15 yards from a sandbag being the de facto standard. One 1911 variant they tested in the last couple of years was "ragged hole" accurate at 25 yards with a clean barrel. However, AR threw away these non-fouled Ransom shots because they felt this incredible accuracy was merely academic and was unfairly skewing the results. I'm sure that created some lively debate in a few places.

 

[billwill]

You are not always standing in the bathroom when attacked! Accuracy at distance is a good thing.

 

[5-Shot]

I’m 75 years old and, so far, in spite of having lived in DC and Memphis, have participated in zero gunfights. On the other hand, I’ve fired thousands (maybe more) rounds at targets at 25 and more yards. When I read a pistol review it is with that data in mind. If a gun won’t perform reasonably at some distance it is of no interest to me and reviews that don’t address the issue are quickly discounted.

Ed

 

[crstrode]

I understand your gripe and now I feel a tiny bit better, too. The dumbing-down of accuracy expectations seems to have gone hand-in-hand with plastic pistols and high-capacity magazines.

I believe a contributing factor is the lack of skill at shooting beyond spitting distance.

Kids these days . . .

 

[Rpg]

If you’re interested in the inherent accuracy of the handgun, 25 yards is the way to go.

If you’re testing your sd shooting skills, TIMED shooting at short range (3-10 yards) makes sense. However, ‘groups’ at those short ranges reflect the shooter’s TIMED skill, not the accuracy of the gun.

Ironically, small groups at sd ranges may indicate a need to SPEED UP: a 1 or 2 inch group at 3 yards is bad sd shooting.

I’m always amused when folks show us short range ‘groups’ as evidence of their gun’s accuracy, or as the basis of their complaints about their gun.

 

[mikey52]

Put me in the group that wants to see 25 yard accuracy reviews. I believe that is the gold standard, of measuring accuracy for most handguns, with a few reviews at 50 yards, for fun. I don't care what a gun can do at 7 or 10 yards. My Phoenix Arms .22, will probably group good enough for " combat", at 7 yards. Just my own opinion, but I know there are some that like the short range reviews. Mike
.

 

[johnt671]

I own an SD40VE and while I've owned for awhile health issues have kept me from shooting it. The only handgun I have a lot of experience is the 1911, and a little with a 9mm from the military. That said, I'll be awfully disappointed in both myself and my new handgun can't hit accurately at 25 yards. I understand that most actions are at a closer range, but if you are aware of your surroundings you might see danger further away. The further away you can engage a positively hostile target, the safer you will be and the less accurate the hostile will be.

 

[Old cop]

I started my career in 1968 when we had to qualify out to 50 yards w/our issued four inch revolvers so I am used to better than combat accuracy for a service sized handgun. My 340PD, an EDC, is another matter.

 

[Fishinfool]

The "problem", so to speak, is that today most handgun owners look at their sidearm as a close range self defense tool. Fast draw from the holster / pocket, and quick center mass patterns at 5 or 7 yards is the norm for a lot of folks. That is fine, and should be practiced.

But, a lot of handguners fail to consider, or don't care about the accuracy and shooting ability that handgun hunting, target shooting, and competition require. For many, "good enough" at close range is "good enough". It limits their level of skill, whether they know it or not, and tends to make any skill they do have a "one trick pony".

Not counting the sub-compact self defense guns, I expect any full sized or service handgun to be able to group at least 3 inches at 25 yards with the right load. I shoot to much at ranges of 25 yards and farther to need to be worrying if the gun is capable or not. That should fall on me, the shooter.

Larry

 

[swsig]

Shooting is my main hobby. I thoroughly enjoy it, and I like to challenge myself at the range to see if I can continuously improve my accuracy. I rarely shoot at less than 15 yards, because at shorter distances, it's easier to max out your accuracy and become self-satisfied and complacent. Not so at 15 to 25 yards! Furthermore, because I live in an "open concept" house, it is possible that I may have to take a 15-yard shot at an intruder in my own home. I'm not waiting for him to get down to 7 yards. As a result, all of my carry/self defense pistols are treated like target pistols. If they can't be accurate at 15 yards or more, I have no use for them.

 

[vonn]

75 feet in a public place is not very far. I hope I never get get in a situation where the shooter is within 7 to 10 yards because your chances of survival can’t be good at that range.

 

[Muss Muggins]

75 feet in a public place is not very far. I hope I never get get in a situation where the shooter is within 7 to 10 yards because your chances of survival can’t be good at that range.

I'm gonna be a little off here, but the well established rule for almost any self defense shooting, including cop shootings, is 1 to 3 yards, 1 to 3 rounds, 1 to 3 seconds. If you're shooting at somebody at 75 feet, you're the aggressor . . .

 

[Farmer17]

I have about 10 defensive handguns in various calibers, .380, .38Sp, 9m/m, .357 Magnum, and .45 acp. When I'm out in public I most often carry the .380 LCP II and when I'm out in the woods I carry whatever I'm in the mood for. Though the guns are carried for defense against people they are also on duty for "targets of opportunity" such as coyotes, skunks, dirt clods, tin cans, stumps in the pond, Hogs, squirrels, etc. I want an accurate gun with a good trigger and be able to hit what I'm aiming at and I like the 25 yard group test.

 

[sigp220.45]

Amen, brother.

I believe the reason for the dumbing down of accuracy standards in handgun tests is that the authors can’t shoot.

I have a mid-70s Guns & Ammo annual around here somewhere with a gun test of a High Standard .22 Magnum derringer where the author shot it at 25 yards. He actually hit the target, too.

Now I’ll see “tests” of full-size 1911s where the longest range is 7 yards, from a rest!. That is just sad.

I shoot mostly at the local indoor range where the longest distance is 50 feet. That is close range to me. But 99% of the time mine is the only target down there, and all the others are fluttering away at 3 or 5 yards.

I had a guy give me the “average gunfight is blah blah blah” mantra one time. I told him I wasn’t currently in a gunfight. I was target shooting.