New reason to dislike mag disconnect

Rastoff

Rastoff

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We've had many discussions on the value, or lack of value, of the magazine disconnect. I just discovered a reason to dislike it that I haven't seen mentioned before.


I have had some trouble with magazines sticking in my M&P 40 full size. I even sent it back to S&W for this. They fixed it by replacing the mag followers in all my mags (8 total) for free. That actually fixed the problem with empty mags. However, today I took the gun out and lo and behold, the mags stuck when full. Hmmm, well, the gun works otherwise so I shot and went home.

So, I set in to clean the gun. I decided to look at it with the slide off and see if I could figure out why it was sticking. This is what I found...

When fully inserted, this is what the mag disconnect looks like:
NormalMagDisconnectsmall_zps38f571ff.jpg



However, when the mag is ejected, this is what happens:
CaughtonRoundsmall_zpse67b20f7.jpg


The mag disconnect gets snagged on the rim of the top cartridge. I tried it again, but with the cartridge pushed forward a little. The mag dropped free.

I checked this several more times with the cartridge inserted properly, i.e. fully back, and every time the mag stuck. Take the round out, or push it forward just a little, and the mag drops free.


Now, my mags are still tighter than I'd like. I believe that my magazine well is on the tight side of the tolerance. Combine a little extra friction from the magwell and the mag disconnect hitting the top cartridge and it's just enough to keep the mag from dropping free.

I may just have to remove this offending thing.
 
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I have a few pistols that had a mag disconnector originally.

None have one now.
 
Rastoff - Sorry if this is a dumb question, but what, exactly does a mag 'disconnect' disconnect?

I assume it has something to do with disabling the trigger, but I confess, I've never understood this.

Thanks!
 
And now the crow eating session begins.

Remember how I discovered this because I was going to clean my gun? Well, I've cleaned it now and the mags drop free no matter what their condition. Aaaarrrrgggghhhh!!!!

Apparently, there was some dirt in the magwell. When it was all cleaned up, the mags slide much easier.

This does not change my opinion. The mag disconnect shouldn't have caused this issue, dirt or no. Neither does that excuse me from not cleaning the gun for over 800 rounds. I was experimenting with the gun and wasn't going to clean it until a malfunction occurred; I found that point.

Clean your guns. There's no viable excuse not to. Learn from my mistakes.
 
Waywatcher said:
800 rounds is not very many to start experiencing weirdness in a pistol.
Click to expand...
Agreed. I'll need to check my records to verify the round count, but I think it's pretty close to 800.

I think it would have gone a lot more if it weren't for the mag well being on the low end of the manufacturing tolerance.

Also, the gun didn't "malfunction" per say, it just didn't drop the mags freely. It loaded and fired every round.
 
I've said it before, who does the mag disconnect protect? It protects anyone that comes into contact with a loaded pistol that has no magazine inserted into the mag well. The gun owner did not follow proper gun safety to allow this to happen. Who does the mag disconnect hurt? The gun owner that needs to use their pistol a SD situation and they are unaware the magazine has partially dropped. They pull the trigger to fire and no bang as the mag disconnect prevented the gun from firing. Without the mag disconnect at least they would be able to get off one shot before the dropped mag prevented subsequent shots.

If you follow proper gun safety, a mag disconnect should be of no benefit, but could cause an issue in a SD event. Partially dropped mags are not an uncommon occurrence.

Bob
 
Long time ago, I was told that proponents of a disconnect felt that during a struggle over a gun with a mag disconnect, if the owner manages to release the magazine it disables the weapon, thereby potentially moderating the possibility that he gets shot with his own gun.

I remember asking the question as a rookie, since our guns had that feature on the S&W's we were issued. After I left patrol and got onto our tac team, every guy took off the disconnect on the Browning Hi-Power's we were issued.

With that said, each system has its pros/cons. I prefer not to have one on any of my guns but as a LEO I can see the headsheds thinking that it's needed since many cops get shot with their own weapons during a struggle. Often times during weapons retention training the mag release does get pressed unintentionally, as well as, causing an out of battery. The first thing we were taught was to immediately tap/rack if we gained control of the gun back from the BG.
 
Rastoff said:
We've had many discussions on the value, or lack of value, of the magazine disconnect. I just discovered a reason to dislike it that I haven't seen mentioned before.



I may just have to remove this offending thing.
Click to expand...

I have exactly the same damn thing.

My gun is crazy dirty, hasn't been cleaned in I don't know how many rounds and it's been used for holster making and fitting so it probably needs a detail strip and clean at this point.

I refuse to do a detail strip and clean myself, I'm the person that should do things on objects of no value first...


Not sure on the round count, I suspect it's around the 800 mark as well.
 
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robkarrob said:
I've said it before, who does the mag disconnect protect? It protects anyone that comes into contact with a loaded pistol that has no magazine inserted into the mag well. The gun owner did not follow proper gun safety to allow this to happen. Who does the mag disconnect hurt? The gun owner that needs to use their pistol a SD situation and they are unaware the magazine has partially dropped. They pull the trigger to fire and no bang as the mag disconnect prevented the gun from firing. Without the mag disconnect at least they would be able to get off one shot before the dropped mag prevented subsequent shots.

If you follow proper gun safety, a mag disconnect should be of no benefit, but could cause an issue in a SD event. Partially dropped mags are not an uncommon occurrence.

Bob
Click to expand...

There have been dozens (if not hundreds) of documented saves due to a mag disconnect. You're whole premise of "if you follow the rules there is no reason for a disconnect" is flawed, because human beings are imperfect and accidents DO happen. Professional shooters, cops, and soldiers have had them.

And the whole "you might need that one round in a defensive situation" is mall ninja nonsense. The odds of any of us using a gun in a real defensive situation are incredibly low. The odds if your mag falling out during it are even lower(never had a mag fall out in over 20 years of shooting). And even IF you need that one shot, what are the odds you hit your target, and that one shot ends the fight( better hit the brain, heart, or spine. Good luck with that). If it doesn't, you now have an empty gun that requires two hands to get back in operation since the slide is not locked back. And of course that's assuming you have the coolness under fire to do any of that while you're scared out of your mind.

Show me one time a mag disconnect caused an injury. I'll show you 100 where it prevented one. All my guns except one have one
 
I was in the FBI gun cleaning room at the FBI Academy in Quantico. VA. At there time, there was a large bullet hole in the cinderblock wall where a student discharged a chambered round after removing the magazine. Fortunately, no one was injured. The gun was a Glock.

Many of us here are older and we've been 'round the world a few times. We're no longer LEOs and we don't go looking for trouble. 99.9999% of us will eventually expire from natural causes, but what about that gun in your nightstand that a family member may have to render safe? I've taught the most gun savvy of my three sons how to properly clear an autoloader but what if he forgets the sequence upon the reality of just having lost his father?

My personal preference is to not have a magazine disconnect. I've used a Brother label maker to make a label saying "fires w/o mag." which I've affixed to the magazines of my two main carry, and HD guns. It's my way of not leaving a booby trap for my family.

After 30 years in law enforcement, firearms instruction, etc, I see the mag. disconnect as a safety feature in administrative gun handling rather than as a tactical safety feature. I first viewed the mag. disconnect with disfavor because of how it significantly and adversely affected the trigger pull on my Browning HP.
 
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I am retired LEO and over many years I have seen many instances of officers on the qualifying and practice ranges that pulled their pistols and started their shooting stage, and only got off one round as their mag was not fully inserted. Our Department did not use magazine safeties because their opinion was one shot was better than none. To say it doesn't happen is just wrong, as it does happen. As LEO in my department (100 man Detroit suburb), we did not load and unload our guns often, but they were in and out of the holsters often. This just allowed more chance for contact with the mag release and a possible unintended mag drop. Also the holsters swiveled to allow for comfort when seated in our vehicles, which could also cause contact with the mag release. It was an issue that we all had to be aware of and I always was feeling the space between the mag butt plate and the frame, for excess space (partial mag drop). Yes I had my mag release while seated, but I always checked it as I got up and never had an issue if I would have had to shoot. I never had to shoot at anyone, and I was the Department Sharpshooter. My gun was pointed at hundreds of people, but I never had to pull the trigger. No such thing as warning shots. Life or death to me meant I would shoot to save a life or prevent serious injury, or shoot someone that was in a position to cause serious injury or death and would not surrender.

Again if you have a gun that you leave laying around for someone to get at, that is not good gun safety. If is doesn't have a magazine installed, then why would it have a round chambered? Again proper gun safety. I have seen officers fire their guns by mistake which proves improper gun safety does happen. You can't engineer complete safety into anything, as humans will find a way to defeat it by intension or stupidity. Has a mag safety prevented accidental firing of a loaded gun, I would bet it has. But if proper gun safety was followed that chance of an accidental firing would not have happened. I have carried a gun for over 40 years and have never had an accidental firing of any of my guns, and they either had the mag safeties removed or they never came with the safety.

My point is and will always be, the mag safety is not safe on a SD gun. One shot is better than none. And yes we are highly unlikely to ever use our SD guns, but should that one instance arise, do you really want to take the chance the mag disconnect will cause the gun to not fire? You can debate what one shot would do, but for me that one shot would surely hit its target in a short SD situation (under 15 feet). Would one shot stop the attacker? That is a definite unknown. But we know that if one shot may not stop the attacker, then for sure no shot would not stop that attacker. A vast number of SD situations are not gun versus gun, but from other weapons and threats, and the one shot may disable the attacker enough for you to get away.

S&W decided that a mag safety was not needed on their Shields, a gun designed for SD. S&W only installed the mag safety on their CA mandated models. Does that make the non mag safety Shields more dangerous, if proper gun safety is followed?

Bob
 
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My M&P didn't come with a mag disconnect but I did find that in cold weather the mag would not drop free. Spent many hours putting the weapon in the freezer and then filing the frame and retry. Still bothers a bit in real cold but hopefully global warming will kick in.
e.
 
robkarrob said:
I am retired LEO and over many years I have seen many instances of officers on the qualifying and practice ranges that pulled their pistols and started their shooting stage, and only got off one round as their mag was not fully inserted. Our Department did not use magazine safeties because their opinion was one shot was better than none.
Click to expand...

The problem was not a mechanical one. To actually have that as a reason not to have a magazine disconnect rather than train people to fully insert their magazines is baffling.
 
PastureOfMuppets said:
I refuse to do a detail strip and clean myself, I'm the person that should do things on objects of no value first...
Click to expand...
You're not that far away. I'd be happy to come down and help you do it one day.

PastureOfMuppets said:
The problem was not a mechanical one. To actually have that as a reason not to have a magazine disconnect rather than train people to fully insert their magazines is baffling.
Click to expand...
I don't think that was his point.

It does happen sometimes. I had it happen to me once. I was at a USPSA shoot. Started the course, but only got one shot. The second trigger pull was a click. I did a quick tap-rack and got back in the game. Now, I've done thousands of mag loads with that particular gun. I would say that I'm extremely familiar with the process. Still, somehow, I got one that I didn't insert fully.

The mag catch could get bumped, it could be a mechanical failure, the mag might not have been inserted properly in the fist place. All those things are possible. I understand the value to at least get that one shot off.

I have to admit that I'm almost neutral on the mag disconnect. There's about 70% of me that thinks they are not necessary. There's 29% that can see some value. The other 1% is reserved for those things/situations I just don't know.
 
Some interesting thoughts and experiences in this thread.

Personally, I'm not averse to a magazine disconnect safety, presuming it's not a design which affects trigger pull, and it's in normal good condition. Some are simpler than others, though.

I've been required to carry one or another issued 3rd gen gun equipped with them since '90, and it's never caused me any issues after some ten's of thousands of rounds fired in assorted guns.

What I do tend to worry about (at least in the back of my mind) is whether a particular gun/holster combination "fit" might result in an unintentional/unknown pressing of the magazine catch ... and then a magazine either drops during presentation or firing of the first shot, or the magazine drops to the point of disconnecting the trigger from firing the only chambered shot.

Yes, I've also seen users not properly insert & seat magazines, which caused them problems when presenting & trying to fire weapons. I'm more inclined to worry about correcting the underlying user actions, though, as that's something that can cause problems regardless of whether or not a particular pistol has a mag safety or not. (There's certainly no "guarantee" that the chambered round being fired will serve to resolve the defensive problem, and properly inserting & seating the mag is a technique issue that can stand alone from an equipment issue.)

As long as the mag safety components aren't damaged or somehow out-of-spec (burred, for example, if it's a stamped metal part), they're much lower on my list of things to worry about than other things that can come along, such as heavy fouling, unexpected contamination (dropping guns in sand, silt, mud, etc), or the potential for an ammo problem with a particular cartridge.

Having an out-of-spec case come up in a mag may may bring things to an unexpected halt ... such as an improperly trimmed (over-length) case which won't let the slide go forward into battery, or a case rim that's too thick to properly slip up under the extractor hook, or a burred case base that catches on something during feeding, etc.

Having one of those things happen to you, even only once or twice in the course of shooting many ten's of thousands of different calibers of otherwise very good quality factory loads, can cause the rare potential of them to still linger in the back of your mind for years to come. :eek: BTDT with all of those examples. ;)

Yes, the introduction of plastic frames that pop out of a mold have given us other things to check for overall fit & tolerances, versus the tolerances involved in guns with machined steel and aluminum frames (meaning machined magazine wells). Oh well. At least the M&P's are using steel mag bodies. ;)

I think magazine safeties have their place in the greater scheme of firearms used as duty & personal defensive firearms, and for some folks it may not be an option either way. There are still LE requirements now and again for magazine disconnect safeties as an optional feature, or else the engineers wouldn't have bothered to design one for the M&P. There are some private owners who like them, as well. I've met some.

Neither of my M&P's have magazine safeties, but they originally came that way when bought, and I'll keep them in the same condition as when produced (meaning they're marked as being able to fire with the magazines removed).
 
Way to "Man up" Rastoff, your advice has been invaluable!

Rastoff said:
And now the crow eating session begins.

Remember how I discovered this because I was going to clean my gun? Well, I've cleaned it now and the mags drop free no matter what their condition. Aaaarrrrgggghhhh!!!!

Apparently, there was some dirt in the magwell. When it was all cleaned up, the mags slide much easier.

This does not change my opinion. The mag disconnect shouldn't have caused this issue, dirt or no. Neither does that excuse me from not cleaning the gun for over 800 rounds. I was experimenting with the gun and wasn't going to clean it until a malfunction occurred; I found that point.

Clean your guns. There's no viable excuse not to. Learn from my mistakes.
Click to expand...
 
I'm torn on the mag disconnect issue.
On some pistols, like the P35, M52(IIRC), some Star pistols(IIRC), and others, the mags don't drop free.
On others, like the Ruger SR9 and the 3rd gen Smiths, they do.

As I understand it, a good number of officers have been shot with their own weapons.
Hitting the mag release during a struggle in which the LEO is losing possession of his/her sidearm can keep the criminal from using said sidearm to shoot said officer.
However, if the officer retains possession of said sidearm, he/she now has to insert a spare mag, in order to be able to shoot said criminal.

My 2012-2013 SR9 does not have a different trigger feel with or without the mag disconnect.
Don't know about my 5946, but it has a smooth pull. I see no reason to mess with it, beyond the strip/clean/lube and repair of a sideplate that was sprung pretty far starboard and had actually caused the L/S of the grip to bend (and take a "set") out from the frame.

Part of me doesn't like the MD, part of me does, and part of me is just too apathetic to give a rat's real.
So, I leave them in.

I did take it out of my Star BM, but I reinstalled it when I sold it.
I also took it out of my FEG P35 copy and put it back in when I sold it.

Put it back in the SR9 and just have to remember to only dry-fire it with the mag installed.
Left it in my 5946 and will probably leave it in my 5906 and 6906.
 
Rastoff said:
And now the crow eating session begins....
Click to expand...

Not something to sweat. ;)

If we haven't had some small portion of Crow on our plates at one time or another, we either haven't trained enough, or done enough, to experience the opportunity to learn from mistakes and grow.

I've sometimes thought the folks who claimed to have never had to eat Crow have either led very sheltered lives, or haven't recognized the taste when it was served to them. :)
 
Gentlemen; I carry a 2009 M&P 40FS and it has a Mag disconnect. I am an LEO and work by myself almost all the time. I know how to remove the mag disconnect and after serious thought, have decided against that. I may never have to use it in conflict, but if I do, I know I can disable my pistol if need be. YMMV, it's up to what ever the individual wants, likes and/or needs.
And I agree w/ Fastbolt wholeheartedly. Well said, Brother.
 
BtW, Rastoff, look for a small burr on the disconnect lever. A very light(Don't cut the levers "pad") polish would probably stop that problem. Mine has never hung, and is actually so smooth in operation that I never feel it. Use an air compressor nozzle to blow the dirt and junk out of the disconnect cam area. A drop of CLP on the cam and pivot area will help, as well.
 
All I will add is that resale of a gun with a mag disconnect is an odd duck. I've sold a couple of my M&P's and that was almost always the first question asked. Both times my ad said they were models that came with out them but people still wanted to make sure. Not a single person asked to be sure they had them; they all wanted to be sure they didn't have them. Not saying I'm for or against them, just wanted to share that if you ever want to sell one it seems more people dislike them than like them.

Oh, and gutting that thing from my Hi Power made that into a whole new gun.
 
kbm6893 said:
There have been dozens (if not hundreds) of documented saves due to a mag disconnect.

Or engaging a manual safety, yet some of the more popular designs don't have one. I'd be interested in seeing the reports on those incidents. The fact that a tactic was used in an incident that ended well doesn't necessarily mean the tactic was causal. I worked with an officer who, having regained control of his weapon (a revolver) threw it across the room to keep the perp from getting it again. Not a tactic I'd recommend, but since it didn't end with the officer being shot, I guess it qualifies as a "save". Let's all practice our throwing technique?



And the whole "you might need that one round in a defensive situation" is mall ninja nonsense.

Tell that to the officers in Miami and Newhall who were killed while reloading.


The odds of any of us using a gun in a real defensive situation are incredibly low.


So why bother carrying at all? If the odds of needing a gun at all are so low, aren't the chances of needing to disable your own gun during a struggle even lower? Aren't other aspects of weapon retention more worthy of our attention?


Show me one time a mag disconnect caused an injury. I'll show you 100 where it prevented one. All my guns except one have one
Click to expand...


And of course you never carry that one, because it's dangerous, right?


For all of that, the OPs problem, as he reported, was incomplete cleaning, not the disconnect. Whether we love them or hate them seems to be the issue here (like the IL) rather than whether they are either an indispensable lifesaver or a hazard.
 
Ofc.JL said:
BtW, Rastoff, look for a small burr on the disconnect lever.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the suggestion, but I did check for that.

Buford57 said:
For all of that, the OPs problem, as he reported, was incomplete cleaning, not the disconnect.
Click to expand...
No, this is not correct. It's almost correct, but you must take the whole situation into account. The main issue is a magwell that is almost too small. If that were proper sized, this issue never would have come up. It just so happens that a combination of magwell being too small, dirt and mag disconnect worked together to prevent the mag from falling free.

So, it wasn't any one thing that caused this new issue. It was three working together.

If I were a policeman or had some job where I had to rely on this gun, I would use a different one. Mag changes are important and need to be able to be done quickly. This issue of the magwell being almost too small would be a deal breaker for me. My 45 and 40c don't have this problem.
 
In early days when the 3rd gen's were new, we were shown how to use a file or hammer to "adjust" an occasional magazine body that might be "sticky" in a particular gun, "correcting" any high spots on the mag body.

Kind of like how nobody really wants to watch a smith or armorer "adjust" the front fixed sight of an older revolver. :eek:

Like I said earlier, though, at least the M&P's aren't using plastic-clad mag bodies. ;) Imagine raised scratched or burred spots in the plastic on the outside of mag bodies, combined with the usual expected +/- tolerances in mag body production. (The grass on the other side of the fence comes with its own weeds and maintenance issues, at times. :) )
 
My thoughts haven't changed on this subject.

The way I like my guns to operate is with a trigger that controls the firing pin. When I want to fire the gun, I want to be able to pull that trigger and the guns fires. Simple.

I don't want an extra lever that may or may not work. I don't want to maybe pull my gun from the holster and the mag falls free and it is incapable of firing. One shot is better than no shots any day.

Please don't bother to tell me how wrong I am, I don't care.

.
 
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