New reloader.....hard to extract brass (update 27 June14)

[usncorpsman1]

Hello guys,

I am new to reloading and reloaded my first rounds after reading the reloading manuals twice. I am using a Dillon SDB ordered from Dillon set up for .45 ACP. My load using 3.6gr of 700x, 230gr RMR plated bullet, Federal brass and Federal 150 Lg pistol primer is the lowest in the Lyman 49th edition. OAL for the book is 1.275. I kept mine at 1.268 as that is the length for the factory Federal load that I usually purchase and runs great through my 1911's and 625's.

I loaded up only 16 rds after metering that powder about 20x's through my Dillon press. It was consistently throwing 3.6grs when weighed on the scale. All rounds ignighted but did not have enough power to get 100 function in the auto loaders. I then put 3 in my 3" 625 and had to tap on the ejection rod to get them out. This does not happen with factory loads and is generally a sign of over pressure. I find that hard to believe in this case as the other 13 rounds barely had the power to cycle my 1911's. The 16 primers on the fired brass look good and the cases are clean with no signs of powder after being fired. There are no signs of over pressure that I can see. The load was also a powderpuff load when shooting from both of the 1911's pictured as well as the 625. My only thought is that the crimp on the factory load is .468 and mine was .471. The factory round fell right into the case guage and mine did not. I'm thinking that the extra .003 allowed the brass to expand too much causing the extraction issue. What do you guys think? Since I am new to this, I am open to all your wisdom.

All 16 pieces of fired brass...primers look good.


Side view


Clean cases....no soot



6 rds factory to compared primers



Good accuracy from Les Baer TRS



Good accuracy from Kimber Ultra CPD........the last 4 rds in the middle were my last 4 shots.

 

[Mushki]

First off I am not a professional reloader and my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it, nothing.

That said I have been reloading for sometime now, without any major issues. You are doing the safe thing and starting at a low powder charge. I think you have two areas to improve on easily to find the results you are after. First your powder charge is too small but you already knew that. Treat plated bullets as if they are lead bullets. For .230 grain lead the Lymam manual suggests to start at 4 grains. I do not have a 700x load but judging by where they suggest to start a bullseye load it should be a good working load. Next you cannot go by what the book states for case overall length. Each bullet profile is different so unless you have the exact same bullet the info is no good. Add to this that each barrel is different and you can see the problem. One thing to keep in mind is that shortening up the case oal will raise pressure. I load my rounds to be just short enough to function flawlessly. Most times the length is determined by the chamber of the guns they run in. Since you have multiple guns this will require you to try in each gun. Plunk test the rounds by making a bullet minus primer and powder to be same place it in the chamber and push it tight. Now see if it falls out. If it does try it in all other guns. If it doesn't you will need to go shorter. Repeat until you find the correct length. Now the fun part. Load up ten or so for each gun, at the min powder charge and try them out. If they cycle fine you have a starting load that works hurray. From here all you need to do is perfect the load by tweaking.

 

[max]

I am loading a bit more 700-X, but with a 200gr load. Check the book, but I am sure you can go up a bit. I assume you are using a taper crimp, you might check to if it could be a bit tighter. You may not be able to get a plated bullet to crimp as tight as a factory jacketed.

 

[MichiganScott]

Plated and lead bullets tend to be larger in diameter than jacketed projectiles. Although plated and lead bullets should be no larger than .452", I've seen them as large as .454". If you have thicker brass, you can get tolerance stack and have chambering issues.

Measure the bullet itself. Compare case measurements at several spots with factory. That should tell you where the issue is. As long as you have taken the flare out of your brass and the bullets don't jump the crimp when chambered in your semi-automatics, you have enough crimp.

 

[SMSgt]

The Hodgdon's reloading data site lists 4.5 - 5.0 for 700X with a 230 LRN (Basically what you have) with a COL of 1.200, not 3.6 grains which explains the failure to cycle and your description of a "powder puff" load. It is because of the low charge.

All I reload is lead and .471-.472 is what all mine read for crimp size. Lead bullets--plated or not--will have a larger crimp diameter due to a larger diameter bullet. You can't compare a factory jacketed load and expect it to read the same for lead bullets. A fair estimate of lead bullet crimp diameter is bullet diameter plus .020. Jacket bullets can stand more crimp without being damaged.

Crimp has nothing to do with case expansion, that is limited by the chamber diameter and varies from gun to gun. It should expand upon firing and shrink back a bit for easy extraction.

Have you performed the "Plunk test," dropping a reloaded round into your disassembled semi-auto barrel(s)? It should drop in freely and flush, rotate freely, and fall out when the barrel is inverted.

If it drops in but not flush, push on it and then remove it (May have to lightly tap it out from the muzzle) and look for rifling marks on the bullet (They may be difficult to see). If you see any, your COL is too long for that barrel.

A 1.100 COL with MBC 9mm 124 LRNs fits fine in my 6906 but will not pass muster in my P226, leaving rifling marks on the bullet, even though slight. I've settled on .1095 for that bullet for both firearms.

If you have no rifling marks, you may have a sizing problem. If it drops in fine but won't rotate freely, check again for rifling marks. The COL you listed seems to be on the long side.

As to the 625, check for crud in the chambers. You also might have tight chambers.

Make sure you are completely resizing the cases. The shellholder should lightly kiss the bases of the die with a case in it. If there's any gap when the case is fully inserted in the die, it will not be fully sized.

 

[BE Mike]

Could it be that those cases were previously fired in something with a less than fully supported chamber?

 

[usncorpsman1]

The Hodgdon's reloading data site lists 4.5 - 5.0 for 700X with a 230 LRN (Basically what you have) with a COL of 1.200, not 3.6 grains which explains the failure to cycle and your description of a "powder puff" load. It is because of the low charge.

All I reload is lead and .471-.472 is what all mine read for crimp size. Lead bullets--plated or not--will have a larger crimp diameter due to a larger diameter bullet. You can't compare a factory jacketed load and expect it to read the same for lead bullets. A fair estimate of lead bullet crimp diameter is bullet diameter plus .020. Jacket bullets can stand more crimp without being damaged.

Crimp has nothing to do with case expansion, that is limited by the chamber diameter and varies from gun to gun. It should expand upon firing and shrink back a bit for easy extraction.

Have you performed the "Plunk test," dropping a reloaded round into your disassembled semi-auto barrel(s)? It should drop in freely and flush, rotate freely, and fall out when the barrel is inverted.

If it drops in but not flush, push on it and then remove it (May have to lightly tap it out from the muzzle) and look for rifling marks on the bullet (They may be difficult to see). If you see any, your COL is too long for that barrel.

A 1.100 COL with MBC 9mm 124 LRNs fits fine in my 6906 but will not pass muster in my P226, leaving rifling marks on the bullet, even though slight. I've settled on .1095 for that bullet for both firearms.

If you have no rifling marks, you may have a sizing problem. If it drops in fine but won't rotate freely, check again for rifling marks. The COL you listed seems to be on the long side.

As to the 625, check for crud in the chambers. You also might have tight chambers.

Make sure you are completely resizing the cases. The shellholder should lightly kiss the bases of the die with a case in it. If there's any gap when the case is fully inserted in the die, it will not be fully sized.

You may have hit the nail on the head with this post. My brass may not be resized correctly and could have caused the brass to stick in the cylinder. I received my press a few weeks ago from Dillon. Friday was my first time using the press and I was having a hell of a time at station number 1 (priming and resizing). The brass would hit the die 75-80% of the time and just plain stop. I would have to use my finger to reposition it, but most of the time, the whole process was messed up for the next station. I made 16 rds, but messed up about 12. Non of my rounds would fully drop into the case guage either. I was on the phone with Dillon trouble shooting it and got familiar with the SDB press really fast....lol. Long story short, they sent me a brand new press that will be here on Thursday. That is why I buy from well respected sources.

I also went to the IMR website and see that I am way below the starting point for that powder. My darn Lyman 49th lists 3.6gr as the starting point for 700x and a 230gr bullet. As a matter of fact, all of their loads start in the 3 level with only one load starting at 4gr when using 700x. I'll stick with the factory site for use of their powder.

 

[usncorpsman1]

Could it be that those cases were previously fired in something with a less than fully supported chamber?

They are once fired brass. I purchased the factory ammo fired it and kept the brass. The gun used was my Les Baer TRS.

 

[Rule3]

Based on the Hodgdon website data your charge is to low, You need to up it to cycle the gun.

As to proper resizing that you will have to figure out. They do sell gauges to determine that or just take a sized case and see if it drops in the baarrel or the cylinders.

Set your sights on pistol reloading data | Hodgdon Reloading

 

[rwsmith]

Great description and pictures....

Great description and pictures are a good way to get good answers.

 

[usncorpsman1]

Great description and pictures are a good way to get good answers.

Thank you. 24 years in the military taught me to give all the specifics...lol.

 

[SMSgt]

I was on the phone with Dillon trouble shooting it and got familiar with the SDB press really fast....lol. Long story short, they sent me a brand new press that will be here on Thursday. That is why I buy from well respected sources.

I've always found the few extra bucks spent with a reputable company to be well worth it. It is a rare event that I need to have warranty work/exchange done with good products, and that speaks for itself. I don't have Dillon products but their reputation is beyond reproach--almost as highly respected as RCBS.

 

[shil]

Make sure your sizing die is adjusted adequately to eliminate any case expansion near the base.

 

[colt_saa]

As already stated, 3.6 of 700x is too low for an autoloader.

One thing you did not mention is if your scale was a beam type or a digital. If it is a beam, make sure you are zeroing it correctly.

Side view

From this image, the center three cases of the first row look over pressure to me. You can see that it appears the primer metal has flowed back around the firing pin. Are these the three from the revolver?

You need to get the charge of 700x to at least 4.5 grains. And those chrono out of my Government model at just 750 fps so that required a slightly reduced power spring in my 1911 to function 100%

If you want to achieve a factory equivalent velocity of 850-880 for that weight with a plated projectile you need to be at roughly 5.4/5.5 grains.

 

[usncorpsman1]

Hello guys,

Thanks for all of the help given in my last post.

I received a new replacement Dillon SDB yesterday as that is what was causing my grief. The brass hit the die and stopped over 75% of the time. It was also not sizing correctly. Dillon replaced it no questions asked. I also re zeroed my scale to ensure that I was throwing the correct weight as some thought that my brass showed signs of being over pressured. A set of RCBS check weights confirmed that my scale is dead on. 3.6 grains of 700x at a OAL of 1.268 was a really weak round that could not possible be over pressured.

Today I used the lowest starting point for the IMR load data and loaded 4.5gr of 700 x over a RMR 230gr plated bullet, Federal 150lg primer and mixed brass. OAL was 1.248. I made 30 rounds using this load data and I am happy to report that they ran 100% in my Les Baer and Kimber 1911. There were no FTF, FTF, or extraction/ejection issues.They also ran fine in both my 625's, with no sticking of the brass. The sizing die was the reason that the brass stuck. They did not pass the plunk test in my case guage. The rounds made on the new press were properly sized and fit the case guage and both 1911 barrels great. I think that this load will be my new plinking load at the range. I did not have my rest today, so I could not really test accuracy, but they did great for just plinking. Accuracy will come later, I really just want to shot more at this point....lol

Please take a look at the pics. I welcome all comments as to the look of the brass and what I need to do to improve as a new reloader.

 

[BE Mike]

Thanks for the update. I would have never suspected that the sizing die was faulty.

 

[Maximumbob54]

I agree with post #14 at possible pressure signs. If I remember right 700X is the powder that looks like tiny little flakes like Doritos or something. If that is the one I remember it's known to measure out erratic. Yes, you will drop it and nine times out of ten it can be spot on or darn close. It's that one time it's not that is the problem. I have the same issue with Trail Boss and a couple of others that are larger flake powders. Give a very critical eye at that picture of primers and you should see where the rounded edge of the primer has started to flow outward. That's a sure sign. Yes the Dillon powder measure is top notch and known to work well but ALL powder measures that fill a cavity can have issues with flakes building up, hanging up, bridging, and other issues. There are several tips and tricks to polishing the internals to minimize drag with flakes, wiping down with dryer sheets to prevent static cling, a more to improve the accuracy of the powder drop. But flat out with a flake powder it's always going to be a possible issue.

As a side note, some of that Federal brass looks like it has a crimped primer pocket and they can be a bugger to seat a primer in them. Some slide right in, some hang up a bit, and some just mangle the primer. There are options from RCBS for using a single stage press to swage out the crimp, options from Dillion and RCBS that use a bench mounted tool to swage them out, and then you can always try to just remove some brass cutting at the crimp edge with a chamfer tool or similar. I've tried all those options and finally threw down for the Dillon Super Swage 600 and wish I had just saved up the money from the start. It's fast, it's easy, and it allows me to buy bulk lots of military crimped brass and whip through them. The press mount option works but can be painfully slow and the rods are prone to bending. Cutting at the crimp works but it's just not as uniform as swaging them.

 

[Marcruger]

You have received some great advice, and I just have a few observations to add...
* Don't mix data for jacketed and lead bullets of the same weight. Great differences in pressures between the two.
* I have seen mentioned that 700x can quickly spike pressures as grains increase, so proceed cautiously.
* That said, don't start under the recommended starting load as you can stick a bullet.....no fun on the next round down the pipe.
* I have also seen the recommendation that 700x performs its best for lead bullets. I did not develop the powder, so reloading manuals are your best friend....especially if you are using jacketed bullets.
* To each his own, but I weigh my charges in handgun rounds rather than throwing them. A tenth of a grain is no big deal in a rifle (mostly), but in the small charge that goes into something like .45acp, that tenth can mean a lot! By that I mean 41.5 grains compared to 41.4 grains in a .243 for example is no biggie. But 6.5 grns versus 6.6 grns in a .45acp could be the difference in max or over max. My Lyman powder charger is just not that accurate.
* I sort my case by brand. I find my crimps much more consistent when dealing with the wall thickness of one brand versus several.
* The best way for me to set a taper crimp is to measure diameter at the mouth on a loaded factory round, and creep up on my crimp until I get that same reading on my reload's case mouth crimp. If you have varying case wall thicknesses (see point above), you'll get various crimp strengths.

Hope this helps. Maybe I am too cautious, but this engineer likes his loads meticulous.....I have yet to have one malfunction. Best wishes, Marc

 

[Marcruger]

Oh yes, Mr. Corpsman.....thank you for serving! I am sure there are some of your brothers who are happy you were there when they needed you. My nephew served as a marine corpsman in Iraq. Best wishes, Marc

 

[Jellybean]

Please take a look at the pics. I welcome all comments as to the look of the brass and what I need to do to improve as a new reloader.

When I first looked at your post I thought the same as was posted in #14. But after closer observation I realized it was just an optical illusion created by the camera angle.

Your brass looks fine overall. There is a federal case sitting on the bottom left row of your first pic in your last post that is a little mangled on the head, do you know what caused that?