new Sport 15 mislabled: 1/9 v. 1/8 5R = not happy

[WR Moore]

Simply on the practical side here....I got back into long range precision shooting about the same time as 5r rifling got labeled the greatest thing since rifling was invented. Remington was producing the rifling form, at least in some special (military) orders with some over production finding it's way into other product lines. Some custom barrel makers were also making barrels using that particular form. They may still do so.

While it has theoretical advantages over conventional rifling it has added costs in manufacturing (Mainly tooling and gauges- I really don't know what various ways the form can be produced.) It would appear in the time since then that, at least for a great many folks, the theoretical advantages don't justify increased production costs-at least for us mere mortals.

My understanding was that the particular barrel in queston was a gain twist barrel that averaged out at the 1-8 twist. Gain twist is another of those theoretically superior things that add quite a lot to production costs and have generated variable results.

I expect what happened is that S&W/Thompson Center couldn't keep the production costs in line and/or didn't see the theoretical advantages appear in the real world. If this was accompanied by a lack of the world beating a path to their door, it's understandable why they didn't continue production.

Now then. You wanted to try the 1-8 barrel for whatever reason. Pardon me, but since the twist rate is stamped upon the barrel, you should have verified.

 

[cyphertext]

I expect what happened is that S&W/Thompson Center couldn't keep the production costs in line and/or didn't see the theoretical advantages appear in the real world. If this was accompanied by a lack of the world beating a path to their door, it's understandable why they didn't continue production.

What I read was that production couldn't keep pace with demand, so the 5r barrel stayed with the 15T, and the Sport started to ship with the 1:9 twist.

 

[Rastoff]

It's kind of like craigslist. Don't ever expect your asking price and don't ever say firm. Regardless of what price you put people want a minimum of 10% off.

Looks like you do have good prices. I'd be willing to pay more if instructors added in training equal to the amount marked up.

People are stupid when it comes to prices. They rarely do any real research. Case in point, I was talking with a manager in a retail store. This store was similar to K-Mart in that they sold everything. I noticed that the sale price on something was exactly the same as the regular price so, I mentioned it to him. He said, "Yeah, we do that all the time. If something isn't selling, we just put a sale tag on it. It will usually sell within a week." He went on to say, "I could even mark it up a little. As long as it has the word "sale" on it, it sells faster." He made no bones about it and didn't try to hide the practice. He then told me if I wanted it for a lower price, just ask. He would take 10% without thinking about it. If it was damaged, like a scratch, 20%.

 

[JaPes]

What do you mean "field strip"?

I mean exactly what I said. Field strip. The minimum amount of disassembly required as listed in the owners manual to clean the firearm.

Inspection I agree with, when I receive a gun, I drop the mag, clear the chamber/barrel. I confirm the SN#, what it says on the box may be right, I confirm it. If it was an M&P Sport, "I" would open the receiver, pull BCG, charge handle, front pin and put them all on the counter for you to look at/examine.

Perfect.

I would ask what you are looking for? Do you know how to dis assemble/assemble the BCG?, the rifle? If you were looking for caliber/twist, it is on the barrel in front of sight easily visible without any dis assembly.

1. I'm looking for any obvious signs of defect: material, assembly, finish. A new firearm is expected to be in new condition. A used firearm is inspected to gauge whether or not the amount of visible wear is congruent with the price asked.

2. Yes. I know how to disassemble and assemble an AR-15 BCG. I will ask if I can field strip the firearm. If not I will ask the gun store owner. For any firearm which I am not 100% familiar, I will ask the gun store owner to field strip the firearm. This gives me the opportunity to inspect the firearm and observe how it is field stripped. Until cash is exchanged, that firearm does not belong to me and I treat it accordingly.

3. Yes. Exterior markings provide a wealth of information. Some people just don't pay attention to them.

I am curious about what you got "burned" on??

A Colt M4 .22lr.

On transfer guns- You can look at it, confirm make ,model, caliber, external finish, bore/chamber but you can not dis assemble it till after the 4473 is done and it is yours. When it comes in it is my responsibility to make sure that it is that way when you receive it or send it back.

Agreed. That's why I do not purchase firearms over the internet. I would rather have the firearm in front of me. I recognize that it takes effort to deliver the end product to me. I've been a buyer for a retail operation. I understand the total COGS of putting an item on the shelf. I think it blows that some faceless seller on the internet can post an attractive price, without disclosing the entire true cost to the end customer.

I know that LGS's charge a transfer fee. Mine charges $20. IMO that $20 doesn't really cover his costs transfer and record keeping.

In regards to bartering?

No problem. I tend not to barter because I usually don't have a good or service valuable enough to trade straight up for a firearm.

I do fix problems with the small LGS's computers and simple network when they ask. To me it's an easy thing to do because that's part of my work background. To him it's an expensive service because he perceives it to be. He's offered me some outrageous price on a firearm as a return favor, but I didn't take it because it wasn't equitable and fair in my eyes. I like hanging out at the shop every now and then. I don't want to wear out my welcome.

Let me know when you are coming in and I will mark everything up by whatever discount you want.

That's the J.C. Penny and Kohl's method of retail. As long as the customer perceives a value, even though there is no real value, that's all that matters. There are some people like that. I'm not one of those.

Since new guns are 10% or less, including shipping. I can not sell you a 400$15-22 for 325 when I paid 375 + 25+ 10%, does not matter if you drop 50/100 bills on the counter. Used/consignment guns I may have more leeway depending on the gun.

Nor would I expect you to not make a fair margin on the sale. Again this is another consideration I give a local LGS. The internet seller does not incur the same operational overhead costs as a physical store. That's why the internet guys can undercut a price. I walk into the LGS showroom. I get shown a pistol. I get shown it's function. We talk about the options. I get to hold and view a gun. Guess what, in my book that isn't free. The LGS in front of me is giving me that 1 on 1, real world shopping experience that the internet can't provide. Depending on the firearm, I won't dicker on $50 - $100 in price v.s. an internet price. By price I mean just the purchase price of the gun itself to keep the comparison apples to apples. I figure that difference in LGS v.s. internet price to be the price of admission to get to actually see something in front of me.

Another thing the internet guys don't have to report is sales tax. From a physical store operator perspective, that's an unfair advantage.

I guess what I'm driving at is that I want a price that is fair and equitable for the both of us. I want to keep on coming back. If everything is fair, I will only buy a gun from that LGS. The small LGS near me treats me fairly and equitably. I only buy guns from them.

Guess what? I also buy sights, magazines, cerakoting services, slide milling, RMR, etc.. from them. I end up buying those items that carry a better sales margin and I don't expect a discount. I buy a T-shirt with their shop name on it and wear it out on the weekends. I carry their business card to hand out to anyone who asks me "Where is the best place?". I paid full price for their IL CCL course. I come by the shop on a Saturday with a box of donughts in hand for the guys and browse the shop. I'll stop by with a bottle of Glenlevit as a shop Christmas present.

Ah maybe I should just put up a sign prices for JaPes are $60 higher.

Go right on ahead. It won't stop me from trying to work out a price that is fair to both you and me.

I'm not a dumb customer. I'm not an *-hole either. I'm an informed customer. Not only that, when I'm treated fairly I'm a loyal return customer.

 

[gunny4053]

I come by the shop on a Saturday with a box of donuts in hand for the guys and browse the shop. I'll stop by with a bottle of Glenlivet as a shop Christmas present.

OK, John
Where is this shop located? I'm pretty sure I can get moved there by this weekend. I really don't need the donuts (currently suffering the ever expanding waist line), but I'm pretty sure the Scotch has some medicinal value that can be associated with improved recovery for my recent heart surgery.

 

[vipermd]

Ah maybe I should just put up a sign prices for JaPes are $60 higher. This was meant to make you smile. I agree with the field strip as per manual, and if you know how to do it so much the better for me, if you do not know I will show you and have you take it apart and reassemble before you leave, that way I know you know how to do it, instead of getting a phone call that ( you dropped the bolt on a fat reload and instead of using the FA, you "tapped" on the charging handle that is now bent. The more I can teach you or you can teach me the better the sale. Any chance on you moving to the UP?? We can burn a little powder, then warm up with some Glenlivet and discuss hunting, guns, calibers, etc. You are welcome any time. Be Safe,

 

[spad124]

That's the heart of the issue. S&W is a well known brand name. When I buy S&W, I have the reasonable expectation that what is labeled on the box and the hand placed sticker on the handguard is representative of the firearm in the box and wearing that label.

S&W has a brand reputation to uphold. Disappointing a customer because the final QA & packaging supervisor/manager chain didn't do their job to catch a product labeling error is stupid. Package labeling and package description sets the customer's reasonable expectations of what is in the box. Deliver less than that expectation and you've got a problem.

Again, I think S&W final packaging and inspection teams dropped the ball. I also believe that it is in my best interest to fully inspect any firearm prior to handing over cash and signing forms.

Well, I understand the OP said the fore end sleeve was printed with 1/8. I bought my Sport in October 2013 and it has a 1/9 barrel with the twist clearly marked. From the research I did prior to my purchase, and a lot of it on this forum, I found the twist was changed in May or June of 2013. Plus, my research showed S&W marks the twist on its AR barrels. I can't recall if the twist is noted on the Sport box label with the SN, I'll have to get the box out of the attic.

No offense to the OP, but I don't consider a fore arm sleeve as a description of the specification of a carbine. The specs are online at S&W's website and the twist is clearly marked on the barrel. Moreover, once someone accepts a firearm by filling out and signing a 4473 many LGSs consider the firearm as used and won't resell it as new.

Like JaPes, I consider a $50-$100 up charge at a LGS as the cost of actually getting to see and inspect a gun before I buy it. That's a fair cost of doing business. I have purchased only one new gun from an Internet retailer and they were very clear that I could inspect the gun at my LGS and in I didn't like or want it for any reason they would take it back unless I "accepted" it.

In this case I would not be surprised if neither S&W nor the LGS offered any correction. Since Sports haven't been shipped or advertised with 1/8 barrels for 18 months, S&W would have to make up one special upper, or send an upper from a much more expensive model.

 

[WardenRoss]

Maybe you boys are a little hard on the OP.

When I bought my Sport with the 5R barrel, a few years back, I had to search around the state to find one. Found a dealer north of me and headed up there real quick. That dealer said that it was probably the last Sport in the state and they was impossible to find.

I arrived at the store, just off duty, went in, laid down a hand full of Benjamen Franklin's, opened the box, closed the box, thanked the gentleman for helping me find a 5R barreled Sport, threw it in the trunk of the Crown Vic, and headed back to my hacienda.

If I had gotten home and found that it was mislabeled, I would have made a call back to that dealer.....well.........the conversation would not have been pretty.

 

[WR Moore]

What I read was that production couldn't keep pace with demand, so the 5r barrel stayed with the 15T, and the Sport started to ship with the 1:9 twist.

Ummmhummm. And the prices and profit margin on the 15T are quite a bit higher than on the Sport. Moreover, it fits more closely with the perceived needs (which may be quite different from real world needs) of the customer for that type of item.

Despite how that plays into the comment above, wonder what the source of the "information" you read was and the reliability of same? Didn't really make a whole lot of sense to supply and entry level firearm with a specialized type of barrel.

I'll also note that while both the 5r rifling form and gain twist have theoretical superiority, gain twist has pretty much been relegated to a foot note in barrel making for litterally ages. I'm not sure what the status of 5r rifling is, but it doesn't seem to be shoving conventional or polygonal rifling onto the scrap heap of history. I do know the Spec Ops folks were pretty blase' about the "advantages".

 

[smokindog]

I purchased my Sport in December of 2013. I just grabbed the box from the attic. I keep all boxes and packaging.

The box is labeled with the serial number and model number from S&W. It's got additional safety check tags on it from Cabelas.

Inside there is only the foam, the lock, the instruction manual, and the magazine info for the additional mags that were part of the promotion at the time. There was no barrel shroud marketing. The only way to have determined the barrel would be the model number on the weapon and the box with the S&W website OR looking at the barrel.

My receipt (sales contract) shows the serial number and the model number.

I don't think anyone in either of the two threads on this topic is saying the OP(s) are wrong in being disappointed. I think we are saying that you need to nicely work with the seller and S&W and hope they decide to help you. I personally think there is very little to stand on other than the good faith of the seller and S&W. Hopefully S&W will help you out. In either case, this is a teachable moment for all

 

[cyphertext]

Ummmhummm. And the prices and profit margin on the 15T are quite a bit higher than on the Sport. Moreover, it fits more closely with the perceived needs (which may be quite different from real world needs) of the customer for that type of item.

Despite how that plays into the comment above, wonder what the source of the "information" you read was and the reliability of same? Didn't really make a whole lot of sense to supply and entry level firearm with a specialized type of barrel.

I'll also note that while both the 5r rifling form and gain twist have theoretical superiority, gain twist has pretty much been relegated to a foot note in barrel making for litterally ages. I'm not sure what the status of 5r rifling is, but it doesn't seem to be shoving conventional or polygonal rifling onto the scrap heap of history. I do know the Spec Ops folks were pretty blase' about the "advantages".

I don't remember where I read it, may have been a response from S&W customer care on arf.com... or even told that by S&W when I called to ask about the barrels when the switch happened. But yes, they took the whole world by surprise by putting such a barrel on their budget gun.

As far as the gain twist, many of us have found that the barrel is actually more accurate with the lighter loads than heavier ones. Oneeyeopen was getting superb accuracy out of some 40 grain prairie dog loads, but groups opened up when he went to 62 grain and higher loads.

 

[vipermd]

Any word from S & W or LGS??????

 

[WR Moore]

As far as the gain twist, many of us have found that the barrel is actually more accurate with the lighter loads than heavier ones. Oneeyeopen was getting superb accuracy out of some 40 grain prairie dog loads, but groups opened up when he went to 62 grain and higher loads.

Veerrrry interesting. The 1-8 twist (or faster) is a requirement for bullets longer than the 75 gr Hornaday HPBT. It should shoot the 77 & 80 gr Sierra Match Kings and the similar A-Max extremely well. At least it apparently does with conventional rifling twist.

While I wouldn't expect entry level guns to be used with such specialized ammo, perhaps the results described weren't what was expected and may be another or an alternate justification for the barrel changes besides cost effectiveness.

 

[Armybrat]

Bought my Sport from GaG in February. I had been researching the model since the Fall of 2013 and was aware of the barrel change. There was no package wrapper on the barrel or forearm, just the big plastic sack that encased the whole rifle.

I too find it odd that S&W would still be using a year & a half (at least) old spec wrapper this late.

Look before you leap?

My 1/9 Sport is a very good value and am happy it's in my safe.

 

[otisrush]

As I recall mine didn't have a label on the handguard either.

From the consumer's perspective it does seem odd how a mistake like this happens. However as someone who has worked in manufacturing envrionments I can easily see how it happens. For example, someone mistakenly changes a Bill of Materials and includes the document number for the old sticker. The system sees they don't have any - so a new order is placed with the printer. The person on the assembly line puts on the sticker that is there at their station. BOOM! Assembly/packaging error.

 

[TheMaineEvent]

What's the latest and greatest from S&W? Last post from the OP was three days ago.

 

[Golphin]

I know what you mean. My second ex wife was mis-labeled.

Let me guess labeled a blonde and you found out later really a brunette.

 

[RETSMSGT]

Me too

I purchased a new Sport today and it still had the handguard wrapper with the 1 in 8 twist label. I was aware of the change having read it here. . I pointed it out to the owner of the LGS and he just kinda chuckled and said he guessed they didn't want the expense of printing new ones. I have read of people having great accuracy with this configuration so I knew what I was buying. I have many M&P's and they have all been quality products. S&W really does need to fix the labeling though.

UPDATE: I took the new rifle to the range today, sighted in at 50 yards and after just a couple clicks of adjustment, I ate up the bulls eye with the next 100 rounds. Great shooting rifle and a blast to shoot no matter what the label said!

 

[JaPes]

I purchased a new Sport today and it still had the handguard wrapper with the 1 in 8 twist label. I was aware of the change having read it here. . I pointed it out to the owner of the LGS and he just kinda chuckled and said he guessed they didn't want the expense of printing new ones. I have read of people having great accuracy with this configuration so I knew what I was buying. I have many M&P's and they have all been quality products. S&W really does need to fix the labeling though.

IMO, 1:8 5R or 1:9 traditional the average to above average firearms enthusiast won't see the difference. The experienced competitive marksman, who for some freaking reason decided to hot rod an AR-15, that's shooting to the bleeding edge of range and accuracy, who has obsessively developed hand loads where every component is weighed, measured, and tested, who has installed the expensive trigger, free floated the rifle, topped the rifle off with expensive glass. that's the guy who will see the difference. IMO, that obsessive shooting quest isn't fun. I'm out to have a little fun.

 

[uncledoggle]

Everything but Ginger and Mary Ann has been debated here so far, but I'm still wondering what S&W had to say.

 

[smokindog]

In one of these threads, someone said S&W has been closed for the Holidays to all but emergency requests. I'm curious as well!!!

Everything but Ginger and Mary Ann has been debated here so far, but I'm still wondering what S&W had to say.

 

[spad124]

IMO, 1:8 5R or 1:9 traditional the average to above average firearms enthusiast won't see the difference. The experienced competitive marksman, who for some freaking reason decided to hot rod an AR-15, that's shooting to the bleeding edge of range and accuracy, who has obsessively developed hand loads where every component is weighed, measured, and tested, who has installed the expensive trigger, free floated the rifle, topped the rifle off with expensive glass. that's the guy who will see the difference. IMO, that obsessive shooting quest isn't fun. I'm out to have a little fun.

In addition to JaPes's list of accuracy mods most dedicated target shooters are going to change the barrel anyway and maybe have the chamber custom reamed. At least that's what my wife's grandfather did when he was building dedicated target rifles. So, 1:8R or 1:9 isn't going to matter.

However, I'm also just out for fun and almost all of my guns are more accurate than I am.

 

[Rastoff]

Whether or not the OP is seeking the "ultimate" accuracy or not is irrelevant. He bought a particular tool based on what was advertised and didn't receive that item. Thoughts about the value of why he wanted the 1:8 5R barrel have no bearing on the fact that he didn't get what he wanted.

 

[smokindog]

OK, it's been two business days that I'm pretty sure S&W was open and not one report out in the 3 of these threads (I know of) where people say they are pretty steamed. This makes me go Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

 

[WR Moore]

Possibly because either S&W pointed out or the OPs became aware of the fine print that reads: "manufacturer reserves the right to change specifications without notice" that's appeared in owners manuals and print ads for decades. I'm sure the legal eagles made sure it was on the website in at least one location.

 

[vipermd]

Whatever is on the web site means nothing, same for the print ads. He never saw the owners manual till he got home and it would not matter since it not a legal document. The only thing that does matter is what was wrapped around the forearm when it was bought, he believed that he was getting a 5.56 chamber not a 223 since that is what it said on the forearm. If I print that the barrel has dual rifling on the forearm tag and you get home to find out that this one does not have dual rifling, that is fraud. I do not have a dog in this fight, I do not believe I could shoot 1/8 vs 1/9 on a lightweight semi that would make any difference at 25 or 500 yds with ammo they liked. If I get a firearm from the company, and I leave label on gun and box stating 1x8 I better produce 1x8, mislabeled than lgs and S&W are responsible. I would really like to hear S&W's answer!!! Be Safe,

 

[NJEMT911]

I had the same issue.

Hi everyone, after reading this thread, I checked my sport that I just bought and found that I have the same issue.
I contacted Smith and Wesson customer support today and spoke to a rep about the issue. She said that this was the first she had heard of this problem but was very concerned. I directed her to this forum and she saw that I was not the only one with this issue. She got very concerned and immediately reported it to the customer support director and called me right back.
She told me that their director was aware of the problem with the labels. She said that the 5R barrels were no longer available and they didn't know why that ended up on the label but they're looking into the issue.
She offered me a full refund if I sent back the rifle. I told her that I didn't want a refund, I just wanted to find out if they could fix it.
They offered me 2 free PMags for my time and aggravation but they're back ordered. I asked if they could give me a M&P nylon rifle case instead. They said yes, so that's what I'm getting.
That's my resolution to the issue.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

S&W offering to refund the full retail price of the gun is about as good as it gets.

 

[ClayCow]

Whoa. S&W that's pretty awesome

 

[schgsd]

Does all this call into question the 1:8 twist listed for the 15T?