new Sport 15 mislabled: 1/9 v. 1/8 5R = not happy

[KS1800R]

Personally, I'm slightly disappointed to know mine is a 1:9 twist, but it absolutely makes no operational difference to me. It's still a total tack driver and for the money, I can't complain one bit. I'd buy another Sport any day of the week. BUT I wouldn't mind if I could find the 1:8 5R upper either! Either way, it's still more accurate than the 20" DPMS I had.

 

[JaPes]

My lgs both of them simply had me fill it out and then complete the form before handing me the box. Technically they have ownership of it until you sign that form. I wonder what would happen if I did what japes does and lay my money on the table and make them open the box before signing the form. I believe it would be their right to refuse to transfer and send it back as they wouldn't be able to keep it since I had paid for it.

I like to buy my firearms in person. I balk at buying off the internet because I can't inspect the firearm. The technique I use to entice the LGS to acquiesce to my request works because:

1. It shows I'm a serious buyer. I'm not there just to look.

2. It triggers the LGS's desire to garner a sale.

The form of payment also makes a difference. The payment has to be visible and tangible. Cash is king. Checks have less of an effect. Negotiating for a firearm? Bring cash and start negotiating by laying out your initial offer in cash. $20's have less of a psychological effect because people see them every day. $100 don't give me enough physical bills to make someone sweat. A combination of mainly $50's with a few other smaller bills really does the trick.

The other reason why it works is because when I buy from a LGS, they are personally invested in the sale. The LGS has converted cash into inventory. Inventory they have to move to stay in business. They need my $$$. I do not necessarily need their gun. Buying online removes that incentive from the LGS. Some other FFL miles away has my cash before they ship. The local receiving LGS has nothing on the line. If I have an issue, all they'll do is charge me shipping to send it back to the originating FFL.

Personally, I'm slightly disappointed to know mine is a 1:9 twist, but it absolutely makes no operational difference to me. It's still a total tack driver and for the money, I can't complain one bit. I'd buy another Sport any day of the week. BUT I wouldn't mind if I could find the 1:8 5R upper either! Either way, it's still more accurate than the 20" DPMS I had.

That's the heart of the issue. S&W is a well known brand name. When I buy S&W, I have the reasonable expectation that what is labeled on the box and the hand placed sticker on the handguard is representative of the firearm in the box and wearing that label.

S&W has a brand reputation to uphold. Disappointing a customer because the final QA & packaging supervisor/manager chain didn't do their job to catch a product labeling error is stupid. Package labeling and package description sets the customer's reasonable expectations of what is in the box. Deliver less than that expectation and you've got a problem.

Again, I think S&W final packaging and inspection teams dropped the ball. I also believe that it is in my best interest to fully inspect any firearm prior to handing over cash and signing forms.

 

[ClayCow]

See. I'm all about supporting lgs but when I compare prices factoring in credit fees, shipping fees(often free)and taxes (often none online), the lgs comes up short by about 60. Plus you'd have to do the negotiating in cash, I like my credit card points : ) on the last deal if my lgs would've been able to come within 25, I would've bought the s&w from him, but he knew he couldn't and I used him as my ffl. I will however be buying from him to buy my ps90 with the fnh mil/leo discount!

I also don't care to carefully inspect my firearm at this point. I have yet to be screwed as I know it.

 

[JaPes]

See. I'm all about supporting lgs but when I compare prices factoring in credit fees, shipping fees(often free)and taxes (often none online), the lgs comes up short by about 60. Plus you'd have to do the negotiating in cash, I like my credit card points : ) on the last deal if my lgs would've been able to come within 25, I would've bought the s&w from him, but he knew he couldn't and I used him as my ffl. I will however be buying from him to buy my ps90 with the fnh mil/leo discount!

I also don't care to carefully inspect my firearm at this point. I have yet to be screwed as I know it.

At least you give your LGS a shot at the sale. My super small LGS is happy to transfer in any firearm for $20. Sounds like a regular price for most sane places, but in my area the going rate is $60. Just like you, I give my small LGS a shot at the sale. Most of the time, he's close enough that I'll go buy from him.

 

[TheMaineEvent]

My LGS is large and is very busy so they're not one to haggle. Especially, on new firearms. Even on used ones they like to wait a few months before they'll even talk about a lower price.
I'll buy from them if they're competitive, but if I can find something cheaper online, by a good margin, I'll go look at it at the store to ensure I like the looks, feel, and action, and then order it online.
I still buy enough from my LGS where I don't feel bad one bit for using them to ensure I'm getting something I want online.

 

[vipermd]

I was one of those 99% that bought a new firearm and assumed that it was what it said on the box. I got burned one time. Now I'm in that 1% that demands to field strip and inspect the firearm prior to handing over cash and signing the 4473. I get some gun stores that balk at my request. I'll put the cash/check on the counter and politely tell them it's their choice. No field strip and inspection, no sale.QUOTE]
What do you mean "field strip"? Inspection I agree with, when I receive a gun, I drop the mag, clear the chamber/barrel. I confirm the SN#, what it says on the box may be right, I confirm it. If it was an M&P Sport, "I" would open the receiver, pull BCG, charge handle, front pin and put them all on the counter for you to look at/examine. I would ask what you are looking for? Do you know how to dis assemble/assemble the BCG?, the rifle? If you were looking for caliber/twist, it is on the barrel in front of sight easily visible without any dis assembly. I am curious about what you got "burned" on?? As for the other statements that people did not see/touch/feel the gun before 4473 was signed?? I have no clue!! I tried 3 different Model 19's, in the same showcase, same time, till the one felt right. On transfer guns- You can look at it, confirm make ,model, caliber, external finish, bore/chamber but you can not dis assemble it till after the 4473 is done and it is yours. When it comes in it is my responsibility to make sure that it is that way when you receive it or send it back. In regards to bartering? Let me know when you are coming in and I will mark everything up by whatever discount you want. Since new guns are 10% or less, including shipping. I can not sell you a 400$15-22 for 325 when I paid 375 + 25+ 10%, does not matter if you drop 50/100 bills on the counter. Used/consignment guns I may have more leeway depending on the gun. Ah maybe I should just put up a sign prices for JaPes are $60 higher. Be Safe,

 

[ClayCow]

Maybe you have great prices viper. Other lgs do mark it up enough to negotiate down. I guess that's not you. Some are also willing to take a bit of a loss if they've held onto it long.

I've also negotiated for range time, something which doesn't cost much for them to throw in. Just something which gives them the sale to put them in some sort of level field with Internet Sales

 

[vipermd]

ClayCow: When I did shows I would increase my price just for the haggle, made the time go faster. If people check prices I will be lowest, but what I do offer is instruction, knowledge. Other local stores mark up is 20-35%, consignments are 40%. Maybe I am selling too cheap? I try to be fair, prices I would expect to pay. Be Safe,

 

[Rastoff]

I find it interesting how people have different ideas on what they will or will not accept. I suspect that most of them will alter their "hard and fast" rules if the deal is for something they want.

I'm not really concerned about field stripping the gun at the store. What I am concerned about is what happens with a problem found once the gun is home. If I get a gun home, field strip it, and find some defect that couldn't be seen without the field strip, I'd take it back to the store and expect restitution. I don't find this unreasonable.

In this case, I wouldn't find returning the gun unreasonable. There is a clear difference in what's advertised on the gun and what the gun actually is. Most guns don't have the twist rate marked on the barrel. So, it's not unreasonable to see the 1:8 identified on the labeling and not look at the barrel.

Now that I know this issue exists, if I owned a store, I would point this discrepancy out to any potential buyer. That way they would know before they buy it. If neither of us noticed, then I would take it back or exchange it.

I really don't see why this is an issue.

 

[ClayCow]

ClayCow: When I did shows I would increase my price just for the haggle, made the time go faster. If people check prices I will be lowest, but what I do offer is instruction, knowledge. Other local stores mark up is 20-35%, consignments are 40%. Maybe I am selling too cheap? I try to be fair, prices I would expect to pay. Be Safe,

It's kind of like craigslist. Don't ever expect your asking price and don't ever say firm. Regardless of what price you put people want a minimum of 10% off.

Looks like you do have good prices. I'd be willing to pay more if instructors added in training equal to the amount marked up.

 

[WR Moore]

Simply on the practical side here....I got back into long range precision shooting about the same time as 5r rifling got labeled the greatest thing since rifling was invented. Remington was producing the rifling form, at least in some special (military) orders with some over production finding it's way into other product lines. Some custom barrel makers were also making barrels using that particular form. They may still do so.

While it has theoretical advantages over conventional rifling it has added costs in manufacturing (Mainly tooling and gauges- I really don't know what various ways the form can be produced.) It would appear in the time since then that, at least for a great many folks, the theoretical advantages don't justify increased production costs-at least for us mere mortals.

My understanding was that the particular barrel in queston was a gain twist barrel that averaged out at the 1-8 twist. Gain twist is another of those theoretically superior things that add quite a lot to production costs and have generated variable results.

I expect what happened is that S&W/Thompson Center couldn't keep the production costs in line and/or didn't see the theoretical advantages appear in the real world. If this was accompanied by a lack of the world beating a path to their door, it's understandable why they didn't continue production.

Now then. You wanted to try the 1-8 barrel for whatever reason. Pardon me, but since the twist rate is stamped upon the barrel, you should have verified.

 

[cyphertext]

I expect what happened is that S&W/Thompson Center couldn't keep the production costs in line and/or didn't see the theoretical advantages appear in the real world. If this was accompanied by a lack of the world beating a path to their door, it's understandable why they didn't continue production.

What I read was that production couldn't keep pace with demand, so the 5r barrel stayed with the 15T, and the Sport started to ship with the 1:9 twist.

 

[Rastoff]

It's kind of like craigslist. Don't ever expect your asking price and don't ever say firm. Regardless of what price you put people want a minimum of 10% off.

Looks like you do have good prices. I'd be willing to pay more if instructors added in training equal to the amount marked up.

People are stupid when it comes to prices. They rarely do any real research. Case in point, I was talking with a manager in a retail store. This store was similar to K-Mart in that they sold everything. I noticed that the sale price on something was exactly the same as the regular price so, I mentioned it to him. He said, "Yeah, we do that all the time. If something isn't selling, we just put a sale tag on it. It will usually sell within a week." He went on to say, "I could even mark it up a little. As long as it has the word "sale" on it, it sells faster." He made no bones about it and didn't try to hide the practice. He then told me if I wanted it for a lower price, just ask. He would take 10% without thinking about it. If it was damaged, like a scratch, 20%.

 

[JaPes]

What do you mean "field strip"?

I mean exactly what I said. Field strip. The minimum amount of disassembly required as listed in the owners manual to clean the firearm.

Inspection I agree with, when I receive a gun, I drop the mag, clear the chamber/barrel. I confirm the SN#, what it says on the box may be right, I confirm it. If it was an M&P Sport, "I" would open the receiver, pull BCG, charge handle, front pin and put them all on the counter for you to look at/examine.

Perfect.

I would ask what you are looking for? Do you know how to dis assemble/assemble the BCG?, the rifle? If you were looking for caliber/twist, it is on the barrel in front of sight easily visible without any dis assembly.

1. I'm looking for any obvious signs of defect: material, assembly, finish. A new firearm is expected to be in new condition. A used firearm is inspected to gauge whether or not the amount of visible wear is congruent with the price asked.

2. Yes. I know how to disassemble and assemble an AR-15 BCG. I will ask if I can field strip the firearm. If not I will ask the gun store owner. For any firearm which I am not 100% familiar, I will ask the gun store owner to field strip the firearm. This gives me the opportunity to inspect the firearm and observe how it is field stripped. Until cash is exchanged, that firearm does not belong to me and I treat it accordingly.

3. Yes. Exterior markings provide a wealth of information. Some people just don't pay attention to them.

I am curious about what you got "burned" on??

A Colt M4 .22lr.

On transfer guns- You can look at it, confirm make ,model, caliber, external finish, bore/chamber but you can not dis assemble it till after the 4473 is done and it is yours. When it comes in it is my responsibility to make sure that it is that way when you receive it or send it back.

Agreed. That's why I do not purchase firearms over the internet. I would rather have the firearm in front of me. I recognize that it takes effort to deliver the end product to me. I've been a buyer for a retail operation. I understand the total COGS of putting an item on the shelf. I think it blows that some faceless seller on the internet can post an attractive price, without disclosing the entire true cost to the end customer.

I know that LGS's charge a transfer fee. Mine charges $20. IMO that $20 doesn't really cover his costs transfer and record keeping.

In regards to bartering?

No problem. I tend not to barter because I usually don't have a good or service valuable enough to trade straight up for a firearm.

I do fix problems with the small LGS's computers and simple network when they ask. To me it's an easy thing to do because that's part of my work background. To him it's an expensive service because he perceives it to be. He's offered me some outrageous price on a firearm as a return favor, but I didn't take it because it wasn't equitable and fair in my eyes. I like hanging out at the shop every now and then. I don't want to wear out my welcome.

Let me know when you are coming in and I will mark everything up by whatever discount you want.

That's the J.C. Penny and Kohl's method of retail. As long as the customer perceives a value, even though there is no real value, that's all that matters. There are some people like that. I'm not one of those.

Since new guns are 10% or less, including shipping. I can not sell you a 400$15-22 for 325 when I paid 375 + 25+ 10%, does not matter if you drop 50/100 bills on the counter. Used/consignment guns I may have more leeway depending on the gun.

Nor would I expect you to not make a fair margin on the sale. Again this is another consideration I give a local LGS. The internet seller does not incur the same operational overhead costs as a physical store. That's why the internet guys can undercut a price. I walk into the LGS showroom. I get shown a pistol. I get shown it's function. We talk about the options. I get to hold and view a gun. Guess what, in my book that isn't free. The LGS in front of me is giving me that 1 on 1, real world shopping experience that the internet can't provide. Depending on the firearm, I won't dicker on $50 - $100 in price v.s. an internet price. By price I mean just the purchase price of the gun itself to keep the comparison apples to apples. I figure that difference in LGS v.s. internet price to be the price of admission to get to actually see something in front of me.

Another thing the internet guys don't have to report is sales tax. From a physical store operator perspective, that's an unfair advantage.

I guess what I'm driving at is that I want a price that is fair and equitable for the both of us. I want to keep on coming back. If everything is fair, I will only buy a gun from that LGS. The small LGS near me treats me fairly and equitably. I only buy guns from them.

Guess what? I also buy sights, magazines, cerakoting services, slide milling, RMR, etc.. from them. I end up buying those items that carry a better sales margin and I don't expect a discount. I buy a T-shirt with their shop name on it and wear it out on the weekends. I carry their business card to hand out to anyone who asks me "Where is the best place?". I paid full price for their IL CCL course. I come by the shop on a Saturday with a box of donughts in hand for the guys and browse the shop. I'll stop by with a bottle of Glenlevit as a shop Christmas present.

Ah maybe I should just put up a sign prices for JaPes are $60 higher.

Go right on ahead. It won't stop me from trying to work out a price that is fair to both you and me.

I'm not a dumb customer. I'm not an *-hole either. I'm an informed customer. Not only that, when I'm treated fairly I'm a loyal return customer.

 

[gunny4053]

I come by the shop on a Saturday with a box of donuts in hand for the guys and browse the shop. I'll stop by with a bottle of Glenlivet as a shop Christmas present.

OK, John
Where is this shop located? I'm pretty sure I can get moved there by this weekend. I really don't need the donuts (currently suffering the ever expanding waist line), but I'm pretty sure the Scotch has some medicinal value that can be associated with improved recovery for my recent heart surgery.

 

[vipermd]

Ah maybe I should just put up a sign prices for JaPes are $60 higher. This was meant to make you smile. I agree with the field strip as per manual, and if you know how to do it so much the better for me, if you do not know I will show you and have you take it apart and reassemble before you leave, that way I know you know how to do it, instead of getting a phone call that ( you dropped the bolt on a fat reload and instead of using the FA, you "tapped" on the charging handle that is now bent. The more I can teach you or you can teach me the better the sale. Any chance on you moving to the UP?? We can burn a little powder, then warm up with some Glenlivet and discuss hunting, guns, calibers, etc. You are welcome any time. Be Safe,

 

[spad124]

That's the heart of the issue. S&W is a well known brand name. When I buy S&W, I have the reasonable expectation that what is labeled on the box and the hand placed sticker on the handguard is representative of the firearm in the box and wearing that label.

S&W has a brand reputation to uphold. Disappointing a customer because the final QA & packaging supervisor/manager chain didn't do their job to catch a product labeling error is stupid. Package labeling and package description sets the customer's reasonable expectations of what is in the box. Deliver less than that expectation and you've got a problem.

Again, I think S&W final packaging and inspection teams dropped the ball. I also believe that it is in my best interest to fully inspect any firearm prior to handing over cash and signing forms.

Well, I understand the OP said the fore end sleeve was printed with 1/8. I bought my Sport in October 2013 and it has a 1/9 barrel with the twist clearly marked. From the research I did prior to my purchase, and a lot of it on this forum, I found the twist was changed in May or June of 2013. Plus, my research showed S&W marks the twist on its AR barrels. I can't recall if the twist is noted on the Sport box label with the SN, I'll have to get the box out of the attic.

No offense to the OP, but I don't consider a fore arm sleeve as a description of the specification of a carbine. The specs are online at S&W's website and the twist is clearly marked on the barrel. Moreover, once someone accepts a firearm by filling out and signing a 4473 many LGSs consider the firearm as used and won't resell it as new.

Like JaPes, I consider a $50-$100 up charge at a LGS as the cost of actually getting to see and inspect a gun before I buy it. That's a fair cost of doing business. I have purchased only one new gun from an Internet retailer and they were very clear that I could inspect the gun at my LGS and in I didn't like or want it for any reason they would take it back unless I "accepted" it.

In this case I would not be surprised if neither S&W nor the LGS offered any correction. Since Sports haven't been shipped or advertised with 1/8 barrels for 18 months, S&W would have to make up one special upper, or send an upper from a much more expensive model.

 

[WardenRoss]

Maybe you boys are a little hard on the OP.

When I bought my Sport with the 5R barrel, a few years back, I had to search around the state to find one. Found a dealer north of me and headed up there real quick. That dealer said that it was probably the last Sport in the state and they was impossible to find.

I arrived at the store, just off duty, went in, laid down a hand full of Benjamen Franklin's, opened the box, closed the box, thanked the gentleman for helping me find a 5R barreled Sport, threw it in the trunk of the Crown Vic, and headed back to my hacienda.

If I had gotten home and found that it was mislabeled, I would have made a call back to that dealer.....well.........the conversation would not have been pretty.

 

[WR Moore]

What I read was that production couldn't keep pace with demand, so the 5r barrel stayed with the 15T, and the Sport started to ship with the 1:9 twist.

Ummmhummm. And the prices and profit margin on the 15T are quite a bit higher than on the Sport. Moreover, it fits more closely with the perceived needs (which may be quite different from real world needs) of the customer for that type of item.

Despite how that plays into the comment above, wonder what the source of the "information" you read was and the reliability of same? Didn't really make a whole lot of sense to supply and entry level firearm with a specialized type of barrel.

I'll also note that while both the 5r rifling form and gain twist have theoretical superiority, gain twist has pretty much been relegated to a foot note in barrel making for litterally ages. I'm not sure what the status of 5r rifling is, but it doesn't seem to be shoving conventional or polygonal rifling onto the scrap heap of history. I do know the Spec Ops folks were pretty blase' about the "advantages".

 

[smokindog]

I purchased my Sport in December of 2013. I just grabbed the box from the attic. I keep all boxes and packaging.

The box is labeled with the serial number and model number from S&W. It's got additional safety check tags on it from Cabelas.

Inside there is only the foam, the lock, the instruction manual, and the magazine info for the additional mags that were part of the promotion at the time. There was no barrel shroud marketing. The only way to have determined the barrel would be the model number on the weapon and the box with the S&W website OR looking at the barrel.

My receipt (sales contract) shows the serial number and the model number.

I don't think anyone in either of the two threads on this topic is saying the OP(s) are wrong in being disappointed. I think we are saying that you need to nicely work with the seller and S&W and hope they decide to help you. I personally think there is very little to stand on other than the good faith of the seller and S&W. Hopefully S&W will help you out. In either case, this is a teachable moment for all