New to this forum - New M&P 9L sights misalignment test

[Ladycats]

Hi,

I'm new to this forum, found it when looking for answers concerning my new gun, a S&W M&P 9L Pro.

When I took it to the range, all my shots (relatively nice groups) were low, and slightly to the right. After looking at the different postings on different forums and this one, I saw that several people had similar issue. I did try to shoot "combat sighting"
(front optical fiber centered on bullseye), but my shots were still slightly low, and to the right.
I have a friend in law enforcement, with 25+ years as weapons instructors also in the military. He got similar results: low and to the right (!).

In one post it was mentioned that the S&W M&P 9L Pro was adjusted with 124gr at 50ft. Hence, I got me a box of 124gr 9mm, took also my second gun, a H&K P30 40S&W, and went to the range for a comparison. I did shoot both guns at 20 and 30ft. Since the M&P was shooting very much low and to the right, id didn't make sense to shoot at a further distance for the test.

Here the result:
Top left and right target: H&K 30ft and 20ft, respectively.
Middle target: M&P 20ft
Bottom left and right: M&P 30ft.

Normally I shoot better with my H&K, but I was very frustrated
about the whole thing (did shoot the H&K at the end).

From the result, it is pretty obvious the sights on the M&P are misaligned, and there is not much difference with using 115gr or 124gr at such distances. Of course, one may argue that the gun is adjusted for 50ft, but why should a gun be precise only at one distance ?

My friend is attending a seminar with people from S&W factory
in a couple of weeks, and we will see their answer. I will post here the outcome. Hope this helps.

 

[Carnage_7]

It's either a M&P 9mm Pro or a M&P 9mm Longslide. Since you indicate 9L it's most likely a Longslide so it can't be a Pro.

 

[Ladycats]

It is M&P 9mm Pro. It has a 5in barrel.

 

[Carnage_7]

The M&P 9mm 9L Longslide also has a 5" barrel. Does your's say Pro anywhere on the pistol?

 

[Ladycats]

Yes: it says "Pro Series" on the side.
I mixed up L and Pro in my post, thought it was the same.
Thanks for correcting me.

I started to shoot less than a year ago, did my first IDPA match
and a steel match recently, with my H&K.

It's a lot of fun, and now I got the virus....
Was looking for a gun better suited for such activities,
did try different guns, and ended up buying the M&P 9 Pro.
It has a very nice trigger (much better than the H&K).
Very nice to shoot.
I ordered adjustable Novak sights. They will be mounted
during the seminar by S&W factory folks.
Hopefully this will address the issue.

 

[Zeke2839]

I too am considering an M&P Pro 9mm, 4.25" barrel. This particular model is advertised with night sights. So I believe that the long barrel pro is suppose to have the night sights as well. I am begining to wonder if I should just get the cheaper model (regular sights) and do a trigger mod. Im kind of bumming reading your post.

 

[Ladycats]

Zeke2839,

The factory sights on my M&P 9 Pro are plain black (rear sight),
and green fiber optic (front sight).

Buying a gun is a very personal thing.
I did try many, got many suggestions by friends, but
at the end, a good gun is a gun that works for you.

I did buy the M&P 9 Pro because:
- great in/for IDPA matches.
- the gun comes with a trigger job already done ($300.- savings).
- the straps of the grip can be adjusted (to my small hand).
- the long barrel may help get better accuracy.
- good brand, reliable guns, etc.
- kind of sights: not that important. They can be changed.

 

[SkidMarkLucy]

The 5" Pro has a fiber optic front and fixed rear. It is setup for competition.

For competition the best sights seem to be a set from dawson precision. I may put some on mine at some point.

 

[Zeke2839]

Zeke2839,

The factory sights on my M&P 9 Pro are plain black (rear sight),
and green fiber optic (front sight).

Buying a gun is a very personal thing.
I did try many, got many suggestions by friends, but
at the end, a good gun is a gun that works for you.

I did buy the M&P 9 Pro because:
- great in/for IDPA matches.
- the gun comes with a trigger job already done ($300.- savings).
- the straps of the grip can be adjusted (to my small hand).
- the long barrel may help get better accuracy.
- good brand, reliable guns, etc.
- kind of sights: not that important. They can be changed.

Are these considered night sights? Or maybe this is just for the 4.25" version. Yes, I understand that they can be changed. Its just the fact that it is new and not shooting correctly. So new sights need to be installed, how much are they and are they adjustable?? Are there a lot of options for front sight for the M&P?
I am not into competition shooting, there is nothing like that around here (Northern PA). I am just an avid shooter who likes plinking in the back yard and I take it with me now and then. I like the pro version because of the mods that are on in compaired to the regular M&P. Cabelas has it on sale for $599(pro) and I believe $549( reg M&P). The trigger mod is what caught my attention. Add states that it is a 4-5lb quick reset type, meaning that it is almost a SA. Have you shot the regular M&P setup? You say you love the trigger, can you tell me more? Is it fast? I guess Im spoiled because I shoot my revolvers a lot in SA mode, am not really a big fan of DA's. But this gun may be an exception, I hope. Anyways sorry for so many questions, I guess I just like to do a lot of research before I make a purchase and no one knows more than guys like yourself. You sound like you have a lot of experience Ladycats, Ill bet you are pretty good. Thanks for your info....

 

[OKFC05]

I too am considering an M&P Pro 9mm, 4.25" barrel. This particular model is advertised with night sights. So I believe that the long barrel pro is suppose to have the night sights as well. I am begining to wonder if I should just get the cheaper model (regular sights) and do a trigger mod. Im kind of bumming reading your post.

Zeke, I own both Pro 9s. The 4.25" has night sights. The 5" has fiber optic. They are different.

I also teach NRA and OK CHL pistol classes, and am an IDPA match director: that means I get to see a lot of guns and shooters. You can just about start a fistfight about whether the S&W M&P factory sights are "off" or not. For me, they shoot fine with my standard 124gr 130 power factor reloads.

The ones new to shooting "combat tupperware" seem to have the most trouble getting the M&Ps to shoot to point of aim. With the exception of defective guns--always a possibility in a mechanical device--most students learn that their technique is vital to shooting the striker-fired guns.

Bottom line: Strongly suggest you borrow or rent the guns and shoot them before you buy. If you go to an IDPA club match, you probably can find several shooters who will let you try their gun. And if you are inexperienced, an NRA class would be more valuable than all the add-ons and mods.

 

[evnash]

my 9 full sized sights were a bit off from the factory. i had to tap the front sight one time with a brass drift. it was visibly closer to one side than the other and i was shooting to the right. after i adjusted it i hot two bullsized back to back at 25 feet rested. i mean dead center, no red dot left on the paper

 

[Zeke2839]

Zeke, I own both Pro 9s. The 4.25" has night sights. The 5" has fiber optic. They are different.

I also teach NRA and OK CHL pistol classes, and am an IDPA match director: that means I get to see a lot of guns and shooters. You can just about start a fistfight about whether the S&W M&P factory sights are "off" or not. For me, they shoot fine with my standard 124gr 130 power factor reloads.

The ones new to shooting "combat tupperware" seem to have the most trouble getting the M&Ps to shoot to point of aim. With the exception of defective guns--always a possibility in a mechanical device--most students learn that their technique is vital to shooting the striker-fired guns.

Bottom line: Strongly suggest you borrow or rent the guns and shoot them before you buy. If you go to an IDPA club match, you probably can find several shooters who will let you try their gun. And if you are inexperienced, an NRA class would be more valuable than all the add-ons and mods.

Thanks OKFCO5..... I bet you can tell I am not a "Tupperware Guy", LOL... well not quite yet ! To be honest I dont even know what IDPA stands for. There are no gun clubs at all around here. I live in Northern PA/NY border. I would love to actually go to a club to shoot as you do. All of the shooting I do is at the local shooting range or in my back yard. The only competitions here are skeet and archery. There is also no renting guns here either. NYS is very strick with handguns, nobody gets into it because of liability issues. I guess you could label me as a professional backyard plinker! LOL...
Anyways getting back to the M&P, you own both the 4.25" and the 5"? Do you have a preference? You probably have a purpose for both. I am torn between the two, still not sure, will probably end up buying both, LOL. Anyways, thanks for your reply. Would absolutely love to attend a shoot with a professional like yourself. Thanks !

 

[scooter123]

A couple thoughts on sight issues.

First, almost any handgun you can purchase will be sighted for a distance of 25 yards. Having spent some time shooting from a benchrest, IMO it's the optimum distance to sight in a handgun equipped with iron sights. This will result in the POI hitting within an inch of the sights from about 20 feet all the way out to 100 feet or more.

Bullet weight can have a distinct effect on how closely the gun shoots to the sights. As a general rule of thumb, lighter bullets will shoot low and heavier bullets will shoot high. If a 9mm has had it's sights set using a 147 grain bullet, it will shoot low with a 124 or 115 grain load. As for why, muzzles do rise while the bullet is transitting the barrel. With a heavier bullet loaded to standard pressure it will spend more time in the barrel because it's moving slower than a lighter bullet, this means that there will be more muzzle rise with a heavier bullet. BTW, it's called Bore Transit Recoil in the event you want to Google the term and read up on it's effect on POI.

IMO the very first thing that a shooter should do when trying out a new handgun is shoot it from a benchrest using classical Precision trigger control methods. That means you hold your aim as steady as possible and let the gun firing be a complete surprize. Do that until your grouping under 2 inches at 30 feet and you'll then have a good estimate of how the gun is sighted with your chosen ammo. BTW, that 30 foot recomendation is based on the predominance of 50 foot indoor ranges. If you have access to a 25 yard range, your eyesight is up to it, and your steady enough, shooting at 25 yards is the optimum distance to test your sights, however hitting 2 inches at 25 yards isn't easy even using a rest, a 3 or 4 inch group at 25 yards is perfectly acceptable.

Many newer shooters will find that they don't get the same results shooting offhand that they do from a rest. IMO, that is a result of the "hitches" and "ticks" that we can tend to acquire when doing all of our shooting offhand. Whenever I find that I'm not shooting "to the sights" I consider it a hint that I need to slow down and work on relaxing during the release. When I do that I find that I can stop myself from "pushing" the gun down in anticipation of the recoil and my groups will come up and I'll start hitting center. BTW, it doesn't matter how much experience you have with a handgun, shoot long enough with any of the major calibers and at some point you will find you've grown a "flinch". What sets the pro's apart from the occasional shooter is that a pro will learn to feel a flinch as it happens and they'll quickly shift mental gears to quell it. It what sets the pro's apart from the rest of us, they are so attuned to feeling what their body is doing during every aspect of each shot they can tell you where the bullet will hit. BTW, I cannot do that yet, however I am starting to learn how to "listen" to my body and am improving on eliminating "hitches" that cause flyers.

Finally, Combat sighted pistols are becoming more and more widespread. When I first started shooting with a Combat sighted handgun it sort of bothered me to cover the POI with the front sight. Until I came to realise that it is a very Instinctive way to use the sights on a handgun if you're actually shooting in a Combat drill. Quite simply, while it may not be optimum for producing really tiny groups, when someone is shooting at you, you will fall back on instinct. Now I have a strong preference for combat sighted handguns and do all my training using this sight picture. BTW, I suspect that any handgun factory equipped with fibre optic front sights will be combat sighted and probably most night sight equipped guns as well.

 

[OKFC05]

Anyways getting back to the M&P, you own both the 4.25" and the 5"? Do you have a preference? You probably have a purpose for both.

Simple.
The 5" Pro is a competition setup to shoot IDPA/SSR and USPSA Production, with FO sights.
The 4.25 with night sights is a service pistol for a so-called "pro" shooter used to shooting competition. The 5" is just long enough to bother me when I'm sitting in a vehicle.
In spite of all the conjecture by people who don't compete with the 9 Pro, it is not "combat sighted", but the bullet strikes at the top of the front sight when the sights are level. Of course, you also have to hold the gun still when you fire and not "break down" or "milk the grip."

Here's a link to a state-by-state listing of IDPA affiliated clubs:
International Defensive Pistol Association - Affiliated Club State and Country List

Here's a link to USPSA afiliated clubs:
Locate USPSA Clubs - USPSA - United States Practical Shooting Association

Just pick a club and go shoot. Everybody had a first time, and they generally are very helpful and supportive.

 

[Zeke2839]

my 9 full sized sights were a bit off from the factory. i had to tap the front sight one time with a brass drift. it was visibly closer to one side than the other and i was shooting to the right. after i adjusted it i hot two bullsized back to back at 25 feet rested. i mean dead center, no red dot left on the paper

I just received my m&p 4.25" pro version and my front sight is way off center also. Whoever mounted this sight must of been in a hurry because this is obvioulsly way off. I am going to try to tap this over as well, or better yet, try to press it over. Its obvious to me that they dont use any type of guage when installing thes sights. The rear sight is right on the money.

 

[MrTuna]

I just shot my M&P 9 Pro Series 4.25" today. It shoots low as many other people have experiences. Yes, I have shot over 10 thousand rounds through many handguns. No I am not holding it wrong or anticipating the recoil. It just shoots low when you have the sights at a flat plane. When I adjust and raise the front sight higher I can shoot a nice tight group like I usually do with any handgun I shoot. The sights are off and they are not adjustable to either I have to send it back to S&W or buy new sights. Pain in the butt that they cannot get something that basic right. At 7 yards the grains that a round is makes no difference as far as point of impact. At least the gun ran fine.

 

[Zeke2839]

I just shot my M&P 9 Pro Series 4.25" today. It shoots low as many other people have experiences. Yes, I have shot over 10 thousand rounds through many handguns. No I am not holding it wrong or anticipating the recoil. It just shoots low when you have the sights at a flat plane. When I adjust and raise the front sight higher I can shoot a nice tight group like I usually do with any handgun I shoot. The sights are off and they are not adjustable to either I have to send it back to S&W or buy new sights. Pain in the butt that they cannot get something that basic right. At 7 yards the grains that a round is makes no difference as far as point of impact. At least the gun ran fine.

I have read a lot of posts that say go to a heavier bullet. Going to a heavier bullet will raise your groups. What are you shooting now?? I already have a bunch of 115 grn bullets now. Sounds like 124's are the way to go. I havent shot mine yet because I havent centered my front sight.

 

[MrTuna]

I have read a lot of posts that say go to a heavier bullet. Going to a heavier bullet will raise your groups. What are you shooting now?? I already have a bunch of 115 grn bullets now. Sounds like 124's are the way to go. I havent shot mine yet because I havent centered my front sight.

I shot 115 grain like most people shoot while training. It would be a pain to special order 124 grain or 147 grain training ammo. All other production guns shoot 115 grain with the sights lined up correctly. I am going to bench rest it tomorrow and shoot some higher grain hollowpoints. If I get the same results I am buying new sights. I don't want to send it to S&W for a long vacation. I need the gun.

 

[Zeke2839]

I shot 115 grain like most people shoot while training. It would be a pain to special order 124 grain or 147 grain training ammo. All other production guns shoot 115 grain with the sights lined up correctly. I am going to bench rest it tomorrow and shoot some higher grain hollowpoints. If I get the same results I am buying new sights. I don't want to send it to S&W for a long vacation. I need the gun.

Yeah.. that could be what I end up doing as well. I still havent fired mine yet, am waiting for the weekend. I havent touched my front sight yet, it still is located more to the left then center. Will fire it first then determine whether to move or not. I have never seen one installed like this. Is you front sight centered??

 

[Gary H.]

I had the same issue with my 9 Pro, but mine shot 5" - 6" low at 10 yards from sand bags. I sent mine back to S&W on their dime and they said they tested it, replaced the barrell and retested. Got it back in about 1 week and it still shot 2" - 3" low. I installed the adjustable sights on mine from SSS and I'm happy. For your info, when mine was shooting about the same as yours, the 147 grains did bring it up to POA after the barrel change.