nitro in load s&w DA frontier 44/40 61/2 inch barrel

thanks gentlemen for all your wise words
in fact I'm a BPCR shooter or better a user
my collection goes from 1869 till 1894, I use all this" old iron " with nitro for some 45 years ,I have not a grain of BP in my house for these approx 50 units from all over europe and us even japan (murata 18 )
I cast bullets and reform cases for the old irons as we called them here
my only revolver has serial 104XX can you give me the age of production?
greetings from Jarmann
 
Specific loads?

Jarmann,
Can you please be more specific regarding powder loads? What "exactly" are you using for Antique guns in "Smokeless" loadings that have been safe for 45 years?

Example:

Caliber: 38 Smith & Wesson
Bullet weight: 147 Grain
Bullet type: Round nose
Lead content: 16-1 Lead/Tin
Primer type: Federal Small Pistol
Exact powder load: 14 Grains FFFG Goex Black Powder
Compressed? : Slight
Type of crimp or no crimp: Roll crimp
Range performance: 2" pattern at 20 yards distance from Model 2 D/A Top break with 5 " barrel.

Your description Reminds me of the Pig hunting story about how this fella shot a pig 6 times with a 44 Mag and "The pig kept coming"....

Not with my 44 Mag with my hand loads he didn't.

Please "specify" your "SAFE" Smokeless loads?


Murph
 
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Trail Boss in Antique firearms?

I'm not going to say anything except that I recommend that anyone considering the use of Trail Boss in antique firearms use a simple Google search: "TRAIL BOSS use in Antique Firearms" and read it for yourself. Make up your own mind. See what the manufacturer of the Powder has to say about the use in Antique firearms?


Murph
 
for the bpcr 's I use Accurate xmp 5744 and Vihta 110
most of the dies com from ch4D or rcbs ,a good basic reforming case is the.348 win and the 50/90 , but now we are very far from my starting post
so I repeat my question perhaps there other heathens like me on this forum?
to the historians I hope to find out the year of construction of my old piece with serial 104xx on the gripframe ?
so I will wait, I have more patience than money
greetings from the flamisch lowlands by the sea
Jarmann
PS: my user name is also same as my 2 favorit swedish rifles
or the name of one of the norwegian engineers
 
I have the intention to shoot this type of handgun
can someone with experiences give me some hinds
I shoot a winchester 1873 musket 44/40 and reload with vihtavuori N340 8 gn a 200 gn lead bullet sized 428 at 100m
this load works very well in this type of rifle this powder has the same burning rate as imr sr4756 or Longshot from hodgdon or herco from alliant .
please advice your loads
greetings from flanders
Jarmann

Please post us some good clear images of these two Arms?

Also, what kind of Cartridge Cases are you using?
 
thanks gentlemen for all your wise words
in fact I'm a BPCR shooter or better a user
my collection goes from 1869 till 1894, I use all this" old iron " with nitro for some 45 years ,I have not a grain of BP in my house for these approx 50 units from all over europe and us even japan (murata 18 )
I cast bullets and reform cases for the old irons as we called them here
my only revolver has serial 104XX can you give me the age of production?
greetings from Jarmann

Greetings...In this part of the world the term BPCR (Black Powder Cartridge Rifle) is directly at odds with the use of smokeless or nitro powder. Smokeless powder is not allowed in any BPCR competition I am aware of. The Cast Bullet Association is not concerned with the use of smokeless but BPCR is just that "Holy Black", no duplex loads either...
Merry Christmas
 
Does "modern rifle" mean current production at 1210 fps rifle; the 1975 listing of 1350 fps rifle, 1010 pistol (yeah, right) or the hot stuff 1850 fps rifle which seems to have dropped out of production around 1960, although we are daily warned against it?

My use of the phrase "Modern Rifle" was careless, sorry.

Lets instead elect the phrase "High Velocity".

When the .32 - 20 was still a Black Powder Cartridge, there were no confusions about which Load for Revolver and which for Rifle, and the Rifle Load and Revolver Load were the same, and with no worries.

But why so prevalent in .32-20? The wildest theory I know is that one of the HV Rifle Only loads has such slow burning powder that pressure bleeds off at the revolver cylinder gap and the bullet just runs out of gas. I don't credit it, but I did read it on the internet.

Maybe!

I'd suspect more likely a Home-Load "squib" followed by a 'Hot' round...
 
Manufacturers Warning?

It's an amazing thing really. How often we blow off manufacturers warnings?

Directly from Smokeless Powder manufactures;

NEVER SUBSTITUTE SMOKELESS POWDER FOR BLACK POWDER OR BLACK POWDER SUBSTITUTE

That's in big bold print on various SMOKELESS powder Manufacturers warning pages!

So I'd say the Manufacturers Are not on board with smokeless use in "Antique" firearms! That's good enough for me.


Murph
 
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sorry for pictures ,I don't now how it works ,I have no camera , in fact I'm a computer illiterate , but there is lots of info and pictures on the Jarmann's on the web
I agree with all of you ,I'm a sinner butt lucky for me I'm not alone .
have a good Xmas
Jarmann
 
Date of Manufacture

Jarmann,
I don't think anyone ever answered your question regarding date of manufacture for your Smith & Wesson Frontier Double Action with serial number range of 104xx?

The Double Action Frontier began in it's own serial number range beginning with serial number 1 in about 1886 and ended with serial number 15340 with the last of them shipped in about 1913.

I can't give you an exact date but if yours does not have the logo stamp on the right side of the frame? It's pre-1898. If it has the logo stamp it's 1898 or later. If it has a caliber stamp on the left side of the barrel? it's post 1902.

Ed has floor records and can tell you the exact date of assembly if you give him the full serial number.

Merry Christmas

Murph
 
the logo is on the right ,no caliber stamp on the barrel serial 10449
Jarmann
 
I have the intention to shoot this type of handgun
can someone with experiences give me some hinds
I shoot a winchester 1873 musket 44/40 and reload with vihtavuori N340 8 gn a 200 gn lead bullet sized 428 at 100m
this load works very well in this type of rifle this powder has the same burning rate as imr sr4756 or Longshot from hodgdon or herco from alliant .
please advice your loads
greetings from flanders
Jarmann

In reviewing the Vihtavouri N340 Load data for .44 Special, and comparing it to the loading you mention - I would have to think the load you propose for .44-40 in your Smith & Wesson Top-Break .44, would be too strong of a Load.

Handgun reloading data | Loads for pistol calibers | Handloads | Pistol powders | Reload your own ammo - Vihtavuori
 
I will share a load that I have found to be safe and yet satisfactory, closely resembling the original In a Uberti repop and some original Colts .427 bullets are not too small. In a Uberti repop the .427 bullet works best, over 30grains of Olde Eyensford 3F/.060 wad with an Overall Cartidge Length of 1.580 using a Winchester Large Pistol Primer. You could easily subsititute 30grains of Swiss 3F and expect a cleaner ignition with slightly less fouling. You can also substitute any Large Pistol Primer, these things have such a hard primer stike there is rarely a problem with not getting hit hard enough.
 
8 gn of N340 gives approx a speed of 870 fps and 10800 cup according my list
Jarmann
 
"Trail Boss" or other bulky weaker Smokeless Propellants

This statement is inaccurate.

Trail Boss is a fast burning pistol powder that is bulky. It should NEVER be confused with or labeled as a "weak powder" when it comes to burn rate or the pressures it produces.

9.3gr will fit into a 44-40 case with a 200gr bullet and produces 15,182psi, 4,000psi beyond the 11,000psi max., with velocities at a low 1,200fps from a carbine.

However, slower burning fast burning powders like Reloder 7 don't have enough time to fully burn when used in revolvers thus the pressures remain low with a case capacity load like black powder, as well as poor velocities.

ANY name brand commercially manufactured 44-40 cartridge is safe for any firearms chambered for it that is in good operating condition. The reason why modern 44-40 factory ammo is so @#$%^ weak for this very reason.

For some reason folks are not "stupid enough" to shoot hot 45 Colt loads and Hot 45-70 loads in weak action firearms but yet I guess folks are too stupid to know the difference when it comes to the 44-40 hot loads. Same rule applies.

Colt and most other revolver manufactured didn't "approve" smokeless powder loads in revolvers until 1909. Why? Know one knows for sure, all speculation...but I can assure you that the very thin cylinder walls are a hell of a lot weaker than any rifle's action.

By 1909, revolvers were using "normal" smokeless loads while Winchester's Model 92' rifle was using "High Velocity" factory loads since 1903.

Same rules apply today when it comes to loading 44-40 for use in revolvers vs rifles as it did in the 1920's and 1930's.

Sharp once wrote in his 1937 hand-loading manual...

" The 44-40 is capable of excellent performance when loaded properly for handgun use. If, however, one endeavors to combine loading for both handgun and rifle in this caliber, he is destined to meet with only mediocre success. As in all other dual-purpose cartridges, the factory loads are only a compromise at best. Smokeless-powder loading for handguns requires a much more rapid-burning type than loading for rifle use, as the short barrel must burn all the powder if satisfactory results are to be achieved. In addition, rifle cartridges can be loaded to a pressure of about 30,000 pounds in this caliber, whereas the same load in a revolver would be more or less disastrous."

For example:

If your goal is the best velocity from a revolver, keep the following in mind.

When the moon, stars and all of the planets line up perfect...

(20" carbine length testing barrel)
9.3gr of Trail Boss produced only 1,250fps at the highest pressure of 15,182psi while 26.5gr of Reloder 7 produced 1,432fps at a much lower 11,373psi.

There is certainly more than one way to skin a cat but sometimes history is the best policy.

Pistol powders have always been dangerous when improperly used in 44-40 handgun loads but are best for 44-40 handgun applications when black powder is not desired. Both Bullseye and Unique have been around since 1898 and 1900 of which both perform extremely well in the 44-40 handgun application.

On a side note, back around 1909 (ironic date?), the US Government's loading machines kept dropping an occasional "double charge" of Bullseye in their M1909 45 Colt loads. Most of the time they would blow the gun with the first shot. DuPont came up with a replacement powder called RSQ. One could fire six consecutive double charged 38 caliber loads before it got ugly. Being "rescued" by DuPont, Major K. K. V. Casey requested it be called "RSQ"......Resque! The powder was dropped two years later with the Model 1911.

44-40 smokeless powder transition years
44 Winchester "Two Peas In A Pod" - Smokeless Powders Transition Years
 
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This statement is inaccurate.

Trail Boss is a fast burning pistol powder that is bulky. It should NEVER be confused with or labeled as a "weak powder" when it comes to burn rate or the pressures it produces.

9.3gr will fit into a 44-40 case with a 200gr bullet and produces 15,182psi, 4,000psi beyond the 11,000psi max., with velocities at a low 1,200fps from a carbine.

However, slower burning fast burning powders like Reloder 7 don't have enough time to fully burn when used in revolvers thus the pressures remain low with a case capacity load like black powder, as well as poor velocities.

ANY name brand commercially manufactured 44-40 cartridge is safe for any firearms chambered for it that is in good operating condition. The reason why modern 44-40 factory ammo is so @#$%^ weak for this very reason.

For some reason folks are not "stupid enough" to shoot hot 45 Colt loads and Hot 45-70 loads in weak action firearms but yet I guess folks are too stupid to know the difference when it comes to the 44-40 hot loads. Same rule applies.

Colt and most other revolver manufactured didn't "approve" smokeless powder loads in revolvers until 1909. Why? Know one knows for sure, all speculation...but I can assure you that the very thin cylinder walls are a hell of a lot weaker than any rifle's action.

By 1909, revolvers were using "normal" smokeless loads while Winchester's Model 92' rifle was using "High Velocity" factory loads since 1903.

Same rules apply today when it comes to loading 44-40 for use in revolvers vs rifles as it did in the 1920's and 1930's.

Sharp once wrote in his 1937 hand-loading manual...

" The 44-40 is capable of excellent performance when loaded properly for handgun use. If, however, one endeavors to combine loading for both handgun and rifle in this caliber, he is destined to meet with only mediocre success. As in all other dual-purpose cartridges, the factory loads are only a compromise at best. Smokeless-powder loading for handguns requires a much more rapid-burning type than loading for rifle use, as the short barrel must burn all the powder if satisfactory results are to be achieved. In addition, rifle cartridges can be loaded to a pressure of about 30,000 pounds in this caliber, whereas the same load in a revolver would be more or less disastrous."

For example:

If your goal is the best velocity from a revolver, keep the following in mind.

When the moon, stars and all of the planets line up perfect...

(20" carbine length testing barrel)
9.3gr of Trail Boss produced only 1,250fps at the highest pressure of 15,182psi while 26.5gr of Reloder 7 produced 1,432fps at a much lower 11,373psi.

There is certainly more than one way to skin a cat but sometimes history is the best policy.

Pistol powders have always been dangerous when improperly used in 44-40 handgun loads but are best for 44-40 handgun applications when black powder is not desired. Both Bullseye and Unique have been around since 1898 and 1900 of which both perform extremely well in the 44-40 handgun application.

On a side note, back around 1909 (ironic date?), the US Government's loading machines kept dropping an occasional "double charge" of Bullseye in their M1909 45 Colt loads. Most of the time they would blow the gun with the first shot. DuPont came up with a replacement powder called RSQ. One could fire six consecutive double charged 38 caliber loads before it got ugly. Being "rescued" by DuPont, Major K. K. V. Casey requested it be called "RSQ"......Resque! The powder was dropped two years later with the Model 1911.

44-40 smokeless powder transition years
44 Winchester "Two Peas In A Pod" - Smokeless Powders Transition Years

So, this relates to the Revolver in question...how?

You assert that all and any High Velocity Semi-Jacketed or other .44-40 Rifle Cartridges of today, ought to be just fine for the OP's Revolver, since according to you, all present day 'Factory' Loaded .44-40 Cartridges are loaded to for use with any 1880s, 1890s S & W or other Black Powder era Revolver?

Or, am I missing something?
 
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You assert that all and any High Velocity Semi-Jacketed or other .44-40 Rifle Cartridges of today, ought to be just fine for the OP's Revolver, since according to you, all present day 'Factory' Loaded .44-40 Cartridges are loaded to for use with any 1880s, 1890s S & W pr other Black Powder era Revolver?

Or, am I missing something?

Yes, you are missing something. Go back and read my entire reply one more time. Read it slow, re-read it again till it sinks in.

No, I never said (or asserted) HV loads were good for revolvers. Where did I say that?
 
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ANY name brand commercially manufactured 44-40 cartridge is safe for any firearms chambered for it that is in good operating condition. The reason why modern 44-40 factory ammo is so @#$%^ weak for this very reason.

Pause, Coffee Break, new stuff, subject slightly changes between the above paragraph and the below paragraph ........

By 1909, revolvers were using "normal" smokeless loads while Winchester's Model 92' rifle was using "High Velocity" factory loads since 1903.

Notice the space between poorly written paragraphs. Typically means the subject changes or is slightly different. The HV remark was to show the huge, gigantic difference between what was available for use in revolvers vs what was available for use in strong action rifles.

I do hope you read the warning labels before you use stuff.
 

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Yes, you are missing something. Go back and read my entire reply one more time. Read it slow, re-read it again till it sinks in.

No, I never said HV loads were good for revolvers. Where did I say that?

You said it in your Post.

You said all and any present Factory .44-40 are safe in and made for use in, all and any Arms chambering them.
 
Here -

Here is the relevant quote-


This statement is inaccurate.


ANY name brand commercially manufactured 44-40 cartridge is safe for any firearms chambered for it that is in good operating condition. The reason why modern 44-40 factory ammo is so @#$%^ weak for this very reason.
 
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