Acorn1754
Member
I never thought about it from the powder standpoint and I will have to look into that further. I appreciate the information regarding that.
No more tumbling de-capped cases
- Thread starter guntherapist
- Start date
Acorn1754
Member
But now you have me wondering and to be honest, if there's enough interest here, I'm more than willing to test this out actually. Right now I reload a bunch of pistol calibers and a couple of rifle. I use a LOT of Red Dot in pistols (as I shoot almost exclusively lead cast bullets, mostly mild loads) and I use AA2230 for my .223. Now if either of two powders are "vunerable" to breaking down from being tumbled, I'll do 50 rounds not tumbled, 50 rounds tumbled and chrono everyone of them and see if there's any difference. Because now I'm starting to wonder a bit 427Mach1.
I've read posts/results from individuals that have tried tumbling and chronographing; results go both ways. I seem to recall that some of the extruded (cylindrical) type powders are more suseptible to breaking down than spherical powders. It will be interesting to hear your results!
Chubbs103
US Veteran
I have been hanging out on a number of shooting forums for years. Due to the reasonably mature nature of the discussions that prevail on this forum, it has been my number one choice for the last four years or so.
Even though the members here still allow certain discussions to degrade into nonsense, I am still more impressed with this forum than any other.
The discussions taking place here is exactly what makes a shooting/reloading/gun forum so valuable to me. Intelligent, mature discussion of our hobbies. I certainly have a lot to learn, and I am always happy to see people willing to go beyond "my way is better than yours, and I have never killed myself yet so I must be right" types of discussions.
As always, I am happy to be a member here.
Chubbs
Even though the members here still allow certain discussions to degrade into nonsense, I am still more impressed with this forum than any other.
The discussions taking place here is exactly what makes a shooting/reloading/gun forum so valuable to me. Intelligent, mature discussion of our hobbies. I certainly have a lot to learn, and I am always happy to see people willing to go beyond "my way is better than yours, and I have never killed myself yet so I must be right" types of discussions.
As always, I am happy to be a member here.
Chubbs
Acorn1754
Member
That makes sense to me. I was thinking that a ball powder like AA2230 probably has no chance of this happening to it. I generally don't like extruded powders (only from the metering standpoint), so it maybe a while before I test it and I'll start a new thread when/if I do.
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I do not understand the "need' to tumble loaded ammo? What purpose does it serve? Yes it looks nice and shiny but who is going to see it if it is loaded in a magazine or in the chamber? The chances of a discharge seems pretty remote but why risk it.
As far as I know it does not serve a function in making it perform better. Actually(FWIW) Richard Lee comments in his manual that there is little need to clean brass and tumbling actually creates more of a health hazard. Washing it is enough.
Don't get me wrong, I like clean brass also but it need not be "Bling" I have loaded thousands of washed only brass which is not as shiney as tumbled and it works just fine and still gets dirty after firing. Now this is range pistol ammo, not high tech bench rest competition where everything matters.
I actually like nickle coated brass as it seems to stay much cleaner.
As far as I know it does not serve a function in making it perform better. Actually(FWIW) Richard Lee comments in his manual that there is little need to clean brass and tumbling actually creates more of a health hazard. Washing it is enough.
Don't get me wrong, I like clean brass also but it need not be "Bling" I have loaded thousands of washed only brass which is not as shiney as tumbled and it works just fine and still gets dirty after firing. Now this is range pistol ammo, not high tech bench rest competition where everything matters.
I actually like nickle coated brass as it seems to stay much cleaner.
Yup, I'm a slob, and my wife has told me so. I shoot dirty guns, loaded with dirty brass, that has never had the primer pockets cleaned. Multiple bangs followed by the creation of another acceptable size group of holes. added 12/30 I do have 4 tumblers but if I need 2 boxes of ammo now, the Dillon is ready to go, and the brass is there, but not tumbled, it does get reloaded. I never reload untumbled brass that was picked off the ground. Revolver brass or indoor, carpeted range brass, or 'my' brass may not get tumbled if I need ammo now.
Take a metal ammo can, set it on the metal floor of a vehicle or trailer and drive 28 hours to go varmint hunting. Every expansion joint, pavement crack, or pothole "thumps" the ammo. I have some ammo that has made the trip 3 or 4 times, that's 56 hours round trip. Did I change the powder burn rate? What's the difference between 112 hours of road travel and 2 hours in a tumbler? No significant velocity difference measured by a chronograph, no significant accuracy changes, significant praire dog deaths.
I think there is a disconnect between lawyer logic and reality. I may be wrong and the next shot blows up a rifle, but I'm still going doggin' with the same ammo and rifles.
Take a metal ammo can, set it on the metal floor of a vehicle or trailer and drive 28 hours to go varmint hunting. Every expansion joint, pavement crack, or pothole "thumps" the ammo. I have some ammo that has made the trip 3 or 4 times, that's 56 hours round trip. Did I change the powder burn rate? What's the difference between 112 hours of road travel and 2 hours in a tumbler? No significant velocity difference measured by a chronograph, no significant accuracy changes, significant praire dog deaths.
I think there is a disconnect between lawyer logic and reality. I may be wrong and the next shot blows up a rifle, but I'm still going doggin' with the same ammo and rifles.
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I deprime, clean the primer pockets with a Lee tool, clean with the TSP/Citric acid solution and dry before they go to the loading blocks. Brass is clean but not really shiny. I'm happy with the results, as my wife describes our house, clean enough to be healthy, messy enough to live with.
pbcaster
Member
This gentleman(427mach1) just might, possibly, maybe, perhaps, know what he is talking about. My guess is that he does!
If you choose not to pay attention to his post, you just might have a LARGE PROBLEM down the road.
Do your tumbling/cleaning before loading...not after.
Is tumbling/cleaning after loading worth a risk? I do not think so.
If you choose not to pay attention to his post, you just might have a LARGE PROBLEM down the road.
Do your tumbling/cleaning before loading...not after.
Is tumbling/cleaning after loading worth a risk? I do not think so.
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JohnnieB
US Veteran
FWIW:
Tumbling after loading removes Alox from the exposed areas of cast/swagged bullets.
Don't ask how I know.
John
Added afterthought, so you don't get the wrong impression. I don't tumble after loading.
I tried it and got some leading when I wasn't before, so I stopped.
Same bullets and primers, same amount and type of powder, same guns.
No lube on exposed lead is only explanation I can think of.
Tumbling after loading removes Alox from the exposed areas of cast/swagged bullets.
Don't ask how I know.
John
Added afterthought, so you don't get the wrong impression. I don't tumble after loading.
I tried it and got some leading when I wasn't before, so I stopped.
Same bullets and primers, same amount and type of powder, same guns.
No lube on exposed lead is only explanation I can think of.
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I think this would qualify for DNR Federal Grant Money!!.
"The Correlation of Prairie Dog Deaths in relation to Shaken Powder Disruption in Rifle Cartridges"
Might be a way to pay for your hunting trips.
pbcaster
Member
Please consider this:
When you are driving, there are significant portions of the road that do not have bumps, expansion joints, pavement cracks or potholes.
When you put loaded ammo in a vibratory cleaner, it vibrates at a fairly(or perhaps a constant rate)....for as long as it is running. I have one running right now, that vibrates faster than I can count per second.
Do you even remotely think that ammo transported in a vehicle is subjected to that amount of vibration?
When you are driving, there are significant portions of the road that do not have bumps, expansion joints, pavement cracks or potholes.
When you put loaded ammo in a vibratory cleaner, it vibrates at a fairly(or perhaps a constant rate)....for as long as it is running. I have one running right now, that vibrates faster than I can count per second.
Do you even remotely think that ammo transported in a vehicle is subjected to that amount of vibration?
I'm always getting in trouble on this branch of the forum.
If clean primer pockets are important to the location of the bullet hole or standard deviation < 500, by all means clean away. Don't happen at my bench!
Blinding bright brass makes you glow with happiness, tuumble, polish and buff away. Straight wall cases run through a carbide sizer die are smoother than anything that came out of a tumbler.
300 rounds of .223 ammo loaded for an AR 15 match were run through the Dillon 550 from resize to seat the bullet, then straight to the tumbler to remove case lube. Powder charge was 0.6 grains more than starting load for 55 grain FMJ bullet. All 300 rounds fired without a problem; no high primers, blown primers, jams, or fail to fire. Had a great time and walked away from the brass.
I believe I will skip the DNR Research Grant Application process. Mr Iggy wants dead PDs, not research.
If clean primer pockets are important to the location of the bullet hole or standard deviation < 500, by all means clean away. Don't happen at my bench!
Blinding bright brass makes you glow with happiness, tuumble, polish and buff away. Straight wall cases run through a carbide sizer die are smoother than anything that came out of a tumbler.
300 rounds of .223 ammo loaded for an AR 15 match were run through the Dillon 550 from resize to seat the bullet, then straight to the tumbler to remove case lube. Powder charge was 0.6 grains more than starting load for 55 grain FMJ bullet. All 300 rounds fired without a problem; no high primers, blown primers, jams, or fail to fire. Had a great time and walked away from the brass.
I believe I will skip the DNR Research Grant Application process. Mr Iggy wants dead PDs, not research.
gregintenn
Member
I use a toothpick to knock the media out of the primer pockets if I tumble deprimed brass. It doesn't take that long; and you should be inspecting your cases for problems anyway. As for cleaning primer pockets, I use a Lee primer pocket cleaner. It just takes a quick turn.
Lee Primer Pocket Cleaner - MidwayUSA
I figure that if I'm in too big a hurry to do this, I'll just buy some ammo. As others have stated; a light tap of the bottom of the cartridge on a firm surface ofter leaves a small pile of crud that come from somewhere. I don't see a problem with working with clean components. Clean brass makes case splits easier to see.
After all of that, my fingers are still black after an extended reloading session.
Lee Primer Pocket Cleaner - MidwayUSA
I figure that if I'm in too big a hurry to do this, I'll just buy some ammo. As others have stated; a light tap of the bottom of the cartridge on a firm surface ofter leaves a small pile of crud that come from somewhere. I don't see a problem with working with clean components. Clean brass makes case splits easier to see.
After all of that, my fingers are still black after an extended reloading session.
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pbcaster
Member
Ummmmmm....OK.....whatever. Have fun!
Clean primer pockets are not relative or important to the location of the bullet strike....they are importnt to reliability.
Shiny brass is important to those of us that want our loaded rounds to look like factory ammo, and perform the same way. SD is dependant on consistency.
Straight wall cases that came out of a carbide sizer are more smooth and shiny than anything that came out of a tumbler? EGad, man, you might want to reconsider that one.
I just do not what else to say.
This was in reply to Engineer1911.
Clean primer pockets are not relative or important to the location of the bullet strike....they are importnt to reliability.
Shiny brass is important to those of us that want our loaded rounds to look like factory ammo, and perform the same way. SD is dependant on consistency.
Straight wall cases that came out of a carbide sizer are more smooth and shiny than anything that came out of a tumbler? EGad, man, you might want to reconsider that one.
I just do not what else to say.
This was in reply to Engineer1911.
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I guess I could see cleaning primer pockets/flash holes for some special purpose rounds. Say competition bench rest shooting or those that load their own self defense round.
But for range shooting targets I have better use of my time than cleaning out 500 or more primer pockets. I would rather do something else.
I did sit down while watching TV one time and cleaned 100 357 Mag brass. The amount of carbon or crud collected in a little plastic cup was negligible.
But for range shooting targets I have better use of my time than cleaning out 500 or more primer pockets. I would rather do something else.
I did sit down while watching TV one time and cleaned 100 357 Mag brass. The amount of carbon or crud collected in a little plastic cup was negligible.
