non-Victory Model?

[ChrisW1964]

Hi,
I was wondering if any of you might help me identify this revolver. It belonged to my grandfather...he was the sheriff of his county from about 1948 - 1970. He used this as his "service revolver". As a child I remember he always kept it in the glove compartment of his squad car...it was passed on to my dad, then recently passed on to me.

The revolver in question is a .38 S&W (not 38 special), 5" barrel, blue finish (not parkerized), checkered grips w/ diamond-motif screw hole, and with a lanyard swivel. It's marked "United States Property" on the left side of the top strap. On the butt is has the usual WWII-era "WB w/ flaming bomb" stamp. All the serial numbers match (952398), aside from the grips. In spite of the caliber, there are no British Commonwealth markings on it.

Any help IDing would be appreciated...thanks!

Chris

 

[scha]

This is a British Service Revolver that was one of the early Lend Lease models. The first group of British Service Revolvers were ordered direct from the British Government. These had no "US" markings. Then, the Lend Lease program was introduced and early Lend Lease guns were marked UNITED STATES PROPERTY. Later (most) Lend Lease British Service Revolvers were marked "U. S. Property GHD". The "V" series serial numbers began when the original serial numbers reached 999999.

The grips on your revolver are later vintage and the revolver was likely reblued.

Hope this helps.

Steve

 

[glowe]

Chris - since you did not find any English markings on the revolver, I doubt if it ever made it to England. Besides, the Lend Lease guns were 4" barrels.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...6722-how-do-i-id-s-w-38-special-4-barrel.html
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/266466-lend-lease-usncpc-help-needed.html

The standard British Service Revolver, or Pre-Victory, was shipped in 4", 5", and 6" barrel lengths. They were produced in the serial number range of 700,000 to 1,000,000. The early ones were bright blued with square butt checkered stocks. The correct stock for the early guns would have been round top walnut with and without S&W medallions.

I would ask if you could look closer at the revolver to see if there are any additional marks either under the barrel, on the frame, under the stocks, etc.

I am sure others will comment, but I have not come across another 38 S&W M&P that did not have any English marks, so am wondering if this one never left the USA?

 

[ChrisW1964]

More pictures

Here are some pictures of the various markings, aside from the usual S&W logos, etc. On the right side of the barrel it says "38 S&W Ctg". It's not a conversion...I've shot it many times, .38 special definitely doesn't fit. For what it's worth, the numbers on the left side, where the cylinder swings out match, but are completely different from the serial numbers elsewhere.

Thanks,
Chris

 

[murphydog]

This one probably started life as one of the British contract guns from 1941-'42. Early in the production they were bright blue, then later matte blue, and finally Black Magic (similar to Parkerizing). It's difficult to determine which one yours started out as finish-wise; possibly it was matte blue to start. The W.B., Ordnance bomb and P on the bottom of the grip frame are typical military stampings for this gun.

The fact it has no British proof marks indicate it either did not go overseas, or did not pass through commercial sales after the war (i.e., it may have come home in a duffle bag or trunk).

The number 99191 on the yoke and frame are assembly numbers; the fact they match indicate these parts were fitted together at the factory and stayed together.

 

[ChrisW1964]

Thanks for the info guys...interesting stuff. I'd read somewhere awhile back (maybe on this forum...I dunno) that some of the .38 S&W versions never made it overseas, but possibly were issued to security guards at defense plants and DoD facilities...that sort of thing.

On an unrelated but semi-interesting note, one of my granddad's deputies used a Span-Am War era .41 Colt New Navy as his service revolver, but had replaced the grips with some plastic target-style grips. That one wound up in my granddad's collection as well, now in my possession. Apparently small-town law enforcement weaponry wasn't real standardized back in the '50s....

 

[Waidmann]

Chris, 952XXX is right at the shift from commercial to Victory grade. the only thing not original for certain are those diamond magna grips. Although 4" and 6" barrels may be encountered 5" is the norm for British Service Models. Since it was Lend-Lease there would be no British military acceptance/proof marks. As stated unless it entered commerce in the UK proper there would be no Birmingham or London commercial proofs. A number of commercial grade British Service Models bear no post factory markings, in fact I own one. It simply is what it is.

 

[Texas Star]

I gather that some of the early guns were rushed to troops so fast they may never have received even Broad Arrow marks to label them as Crown property.

Come to think of it, if the gun was marked as US Property, they may not have marked those with the Broad Arrow. Those were def. Lend-Lease items. Earlier ones were paid for by the British, S&W even supplying most as reparations for their failed 9mm Light Rifle project for which the UK had paid them about a million dollars. They negotiated to send .38 revolvers instead. This saved S&W from bankruptcy and got much needed .38's into Commonwealth hands promptly. The Light Rifle project was scrapped, the need being eventually met by the Sten gun.

Does your gun shoot 146 grain .38 S&W ammo to the sights? I thought the sights were regulated for 178--200 grain bullets. Enfield .38's have interchangeable front sight blades to accomodate different bullet weights, but S&W and Webley sights are fixed. (On their MK IV .38's.)

As for guns carrried by US cops in the South until probably the late 1970's, you might find anything. I saw Dallas officers with everything from a nickled Webley MK VI with colorful fake pearl grips to a Browning Rennaisance Grade 9mm. Most common were S&W M&P/Model 10 guns and Model 15's, with a lot of .357's and some .41-.45 S&W's. Colt .45 autos were seen, too. I met a game warden who used a .38 Super. The last Dallas issued revolvers were Model 64's. These seem now to be issued to city security guards. Police here carry 9mm or .357 SIG guns in several SIG models. I think the Sheriff uses Glocks. DPS has .357 SIG's, P-226's. Texas Rangers can carry those or probably whatever they want. Rangers have had very wide latitude in gun choice. They are an elite investigative unit of the DPS, not part of the Highway Patrol. They number about 150 members, statewide. They are the oldest police in North America, considerably predating the RCMP.

There is probably no way to be certain whether your gun left the US during the war. But it wasn't sold on the UK commercial market, as it lacks the usual bevy of proof marks required for that. It may have been bartered for or stolen from the BritIsh or Canadians, dropped to resistance forces, or captured from Commonwealth forces, then recaptured by an American. A US paratrooper turned author mentioned seeing one British tank column in which almost all of the men had these S&W's. A few hours later, he found that same column had been wiped out by a German ambush. I presume that Jerry looted guns when things like that happened. They wouldn't have stopped with looking for bully beef, tea, and chocolate! I think this was in, "The Road Past Arnhem", if you can find that book. The author also noted that many British tanks were US Shermans. (However,some were refitted with more powerful main guns.)