Noob!

[GT1000000]

Hello and let me begin by apologizing...I like S&W guns, although I only own a couple and know enough about them to satisfy my curiosity...
I am here, however, trying to help out a good friend of mine identify an old S&W revolver he is handing over to his son.
It has been in his family for a very long time, but the history of it is somewhat lost in the past.
He was unsure if it was chambered for .38 special and asked me to take a look at it...
Since I have a rudimentary knowledge of firearms, I verified for him that yes it is a .38
The Barrel looked to be 5 inches and was stamped across the top with .38 S&W CTG.
My whole point to this ramble is that I noticed the serial number on the bottom of the butt and I told him I would try and do a little research on it, to see if it had any special significance.
The serial number is V 592XXX.
I am not sure if I am in the correct forum to ask this question, but would appreciate any guidance and information.
I would like to know as much as possible about this piece, so I can relay it to him.
If you need any other information, Please, feel free to ask, and I will do my best to get it for you.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
Sincerely,
Gus

 

[GerSan69]

Hi GT, I'm not one of the pros but I do have a copy of the Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson. From what I'm reading, the revolver is not chambered for .38 Special, it's .38 S&W. The two cartridges are not interchangeable. The serial number is in the range of those sent to Britain during WW II. (I'm just piping in to make sure your friend or his son don't try to use it with the wrong ammo.)

 

[bamabiker]

Welcome to the forum Gus.
That sounds like a Victory model and the 38 S&W CTG.(cartridge) is not the same as 38 special. There are other members here with a lot more knowledge about these than me and they should be along shortly.


He ^^^ beat me to it.

 

[JSR III]

Welcome to the forum. You have a British Victory model produced around 1943. Approximately 250,000 were produced between 1942 and 1945. Serial range is between V1 and V769,000. The main difference between the British service revolver and the the standard .38 M&P was the cartridge. The .38 M&P was in .38 S&W Special and the British service revolvers chambered in .38 S&W loaded with a 200 grain lead bullet. This also earned this revolver the nickname of the .38/200 British Service revolver.

Pictures would be great.

 

[DWalt]

The big question is whether the cylinder has been rechambered for .38 Special. If you have a .38 Special cartridge, try to chamber it. If it fits, it has been rechambered. A great many V-models were. As a shooter, not a really big deal, but it does greatly affect value.

 

[GT1000000]

Thank you, gents for your responses...
I am working on getting pics from my friend and as soon as I do, I will post them up...
We did notice the chambers have been reamed {rather rough looking} out to be able to accept a .38 special...
This brings up a couple of concerns/thoughts/questions...
I believe that .38 S&W is a .361 diameter bullet as opposed to a .38 Special being .357 diameter...
Should this gun be fired?
Overall it looks to be in very good condition and the lock work is tight and the bore is mirror smooth with a few minor pits...
Is it safe to fire this gun with .38 specials?
I understand that accuracy would tend to suffer, due to a bullet that may not seat properly in the rifling...
Can .38 S&W be obtained?
To reload .38 S&W, what case would be used? A re-sized .38 case, or some other case?
Again, many thanks for your assistance.
Gus

 

[Goony]

First off, welcome. Lots of questions there, but that's what this forum's for.

Photos would really be helpful in accurately assessing what exactly you have. There were lots of commercial conversions of the British Service Revolver pattern of the Victory model done in the 1950's and 60's. This often involved replacing stocks, refinishing, putting on different sights, and of course, accommodating the .38 Special round by the expedient of simply reaming out the cylinder chambers.

Safety is relative to the level of your acceptance of risk. You can fire .38 Special in these without any high probability of the gun "grenading" but bulged or even ruptured cartridge casings may result, which can make for an unpleasant shooting experience. Certainly you would not want to push your luck with +P rated ammo - stick to the mildest .38 Special load you can find. As you note, the disparity in bullet diameter will adversely affect accuracy in any event.

.38 S&W ammo isn't going to be found at your local Walmart, but many gun shops will stock it. Be prepared for some serious "sticker shock" relative to the typical cost of .38 Special.

As you've probably surmised by this point, a revolver such as this is a pretty marginal affair....

 

[Art Doc]

If you do not load your own ammo the 38 S&W is not a good choice. Ammo is hard to find and pricey when you do. The converted guns are iffy at times with regards to extraction. I wouldn't mess with shooting one with 38 Special ammo. Sell it and buy a gun in 38 Special if you want a shooter. If it's just a keepsake then no problem. I have several guns in 38 S&W but I load my own ammo.

 

[Hondo44]

To reload .38 S&W, what case would be used? A re-sized .38 case, or some other case?
Again, many thanks for your assistance.
Gus

Gus,
Welcome! It seems you have received answers to all of your questions except the last one. Just to recap: you now know that you have a Smith and Wesson with a 'V' prefaced serial number, dubbed the 'Victory Model'. The model that eventually became the Mod 10 c. 1957, produced under contract for the Brits by S&W before and during WW II.

Once .38 specials are shot in the gun, the case will be resized to the diameter needed. Then they'll just need shortening to the length of the .38 S&W listed in reloading manuals. Which are slightly larger in diameter but much shorter than .38 Spl. Then they're ready to be reloaded.

However, my suggestion for a much simpler and better result would be to buy two boxes of the correct 38 S&W ammo (100 rounds), shoot those and then reload the cases.

The shooting experience will be much more fun with the accuracy of the correct ammo. They have mild recoil in that size gun.

 

[GT1000000]

Thank you all for your extremely knowledgeable and very helpful responses.
My friend is leaving for North Carolina today and was going to take the gun to his son, but thanks to the information I have been able to get for him from all of you, he has had second thoughts and decided to hang on to it for the time being.
He was originally going to give it to his son as a home protection piece, but knowing what he knows now, has decided that a better choice for home defense would be a more modern type of firearm.
That being said, when he returns, I will get together with him and take lots of photographs of the gun and post them here for your scrutiny.
Once again, thank you all for taking the time to educate and inform.
Have a great weekend and I'll be back with pics, soon.
Gus

 

[DWalt]

Problems in firing .38 Special won't be known until it has been tried. Personally, I have had no difficulties of any kind, and accuracy is OK. That may not be the case for any other converted V-model. A rough chamber could cause hard case extraction. Again, I have not experienced that in any I have fired.

The best ammunition to be used in a converted V-model would be .38 S&W. As has been stated, it is still loaded, but is not widely stocked. A larger gun shop will probably have a box or two, at $30-$40/box. It is nearly always to be found at gun shows. Or any dealer can special order it. There are also internet sources. But the best way to go is handloading. .38 S&W cases are readily available, and .38 Special cases can be cut to the proper length. That is a pain to do, but I have made many cases that way in the old days. .38 Short Colt ammunition and cases can be used, but .38 Short Colt is scarcer than .38 S&W, so there is not much point in that. I now have an ample supply of real .38 S&W cases, so I don't do that any more. In reloading, one should use .360-.361 lead bullets, but I have used .357-.358 bullets (as used for loading .38 Special), and they perform perfectly OK.

 

[WaMike]

.....has decided that a better choice for home defense would be a more modern type of firearm.....

Actually.....the 38 S&W is a pretty good home defense gun, particularly if one handloads.

Friend of mine was complaining at the range about how terribly inaccurate was the 4" barreled 38 Special he inherited from his dad. I looked at the fired brass, and discovered the "reverse bottleneck" created when one shoots 38 Special cartridges in a 38 S&W.

Since I reload, we ordered a set of Lee dies, .359" & .360" bullets from a couple of vendors and we were set. The gun shoots just as accurately as any 38 Special, and velocities are comparable to many target Special loads.

The fun part was loading 200 gr. bullets, a la' the Brit 38-200 load. As you all know, in its original configuration (lead bullet, then half-jacket) the Brits claimed it was as efficient a man-stopper as their .455 Webley cartridge (my readings indicate that only when the Brits had to switch to full jacketed bullets, with subsequent higher pressures and lower velocities did they become disillusioned with the round).

Don't know about the man-stopper comparisons, but our lead loads were fairly impressive in wet phone books (4" penetration), tree trunks and other targets. Muzzle velocity averaged 710 fps.

Inspired, I ordered and loaded some 200 gr. bullets in .358" for my various 38 Special revolvers. They loaf out of the barrel at 800 fps. in my Mdl 10, but make an even bigger and longer hole (5-6"), in wet newspaper than the 38 S&W.

Bullets expanded to .40" to .45" in both calibers.

That appears to me to be a pretty good home defense gun.

 

[GT1000000]

.....has decided that a better choice for home defense would be a more modern type of firearm.....

Actually.....the 38 S&W is a pretty good home defense gun, particularly if one handloads.

Thank you for that excellent reply, Sir...

What he actually meant by the "more modern" statement was the fact that...
A- this piece would generally be used by his son's wife while he is away, sometimes for months at a time "smoke-jumping"...

B- the ammo is not readily available and they don't reload, plus I have it on good authority {several law practitioners and a couple of judges that I know} If you have to use your weapon in self-defense and it ends up in court, it won't look good for the shooter, in the eyes of today's dumb-down liberal jurors, if you used self loaded ammo...I also want to add that the chambers have been reamed to accept .38 Special, but due to the age of this gun, I would feel safe firing some of my low power practice handloads through it, but I would be concerned if a person who knows very little about firearms was inadvertently talked into buying some modern .38 Spl. +P home defense loads by an unsuspecting salesman...you know what I mean???

C-And, finally it turns out she is a small stature person and this piece would be too large for her...

All that being said, I completely agree with you in the fact that it was used quite successfully during WWII by many, and after all, if it proved itself in combat, it most certainly can be relied upon for home defense...

I also have an ulterior motive...Hahaha...by him being convinced to keep it around, I will likely get some dies for it and reload some ammo for it and maybe enjoy a nice session with it at the range one day...

BTW, I will hopefully be getting together with him this weekend and I'll be taking a lot of pics of it to post up, stay tuned...

Have a great day

 

[DWalt]

"If you have to use your weapon in self-defense and it ends up in court, it won't look good for the shooter, in the eyes of today's dumb-down liberal jurors, if you used self loaded ammo."
That and similar comments has come up numerous times in many gun-related forums. The typical response is than no one knows of any instance in which the use of re-loaded ammunition makes any difference in court. A prosecutor could use the presence of reloaded ammunition as an argument that the defendant was a blood-thirsty murderer, but I don't think it would get very far. Now, if someone was using reloaded ammunition with poison or explosive bullets, that could be different.

I think there was one self-defense killing in Colorado (but it may have been another state) some years back that went to trial. The defendant had used a .40 S&W pistol, and the prosecutor won the case against him with the argument that the .40 S&W was "too powerful and unnecessarily lethal" and the jury bought it. The defendant was convicted, but the conviction was overturned on appeal, when it was pointed out that the .40 S&W was in almost universal use by police forces all over the country. I believe that case led to a change in Colorado laws which specifically allowed the use of any caliber weapon for self-defense. It had nothing to do with use of reloaded ammunition.

 

[A10]

Welcome to the forum GT. I think your friends idea of a more modern firearm for self/home defense is a good one. I would however caution your friend against going with something as small as a Chiefs Special snub nose, which seems to sometimes be the first firearm chosen for women. They can be difficult to learn to shoot and can have a fairly stout recoil. If your friend decides to stick with a revolver, the Kframe size is a good choice. Proper grip selection can certainly help out if there is a concern about hand size. The weight really shouldn't be a factor, and actually helps quite a bit in controlling recoil. I would highly suggest checking Bud's website for used Model 10s. They carry alot of police trade ins and they are a very good price. Most of these have some finish issues but are in very good shape mechanically.

Best of luck to your friend!

 

[GT1000000]

Thank you all for your continued interest and information.

Well, as promised, I have gotten together with my friend and taken a few pics of the Victory S&W...

Enjoy perusing and any further comments or suggestions are greatly welcome...

Have a great upcoming weekend.

 

[Green Frog]

Your pictures show something else... somewhere in its life the grips were changed on this old veteran (to a newer and probably nicer set.) The originals were most probably shaped the same but smooth, not checkered. Never fear, though. The gun is a "shooter" and the grips are nice and fit it reasonably well, making them fine to use as you are shooting it. The markings on the barrel show no sign of buffing to me, but the color of the frame looks a little off... the gun may have been reblued at some time along the way. The hammer still shows the nice original case colors and the trigger seems to, but the add-on trigger shoe covers up most of it.

All in all, I think you and your friend made the right decision to keep it and shoot it yourselves where you can reload and enjoy it. The daughter-in-law should be given something appropriate to the small hands you mention, I like the Model 30 type J-frames in the very shootable 32 S&W Long. Get her a lot of reloads so she can practice, and if she is in NC, you can get some nice hollow points from GA Arms, the same thing in my Niece's 30-1 (and truth to tell, the 32 HE that does CCW duty for me! )

Froggie

 

[Wiregrassguy]

I'm with Froggie. My brother's girlfriend originally tried a slide 9mm pistol, but had insufficient arm strength to rack it, although she had no problems shooting it. She is a slight stature lady. A nice model 30 or 31 would likely be a fine fit for her hand. Although a .32 might not stop a giant on PCP, I wouldn't want to be shot with one [not that I'm a giant or on PCP ]. And, because of the light recoil, they can be brought back to POA much quicker.

 

[WaMike]

I'll add to Dwalt's and others comments about using hand loads for home defense....that old saw keeps being repeated on-line ad nauseum, and no one has yet to point to a court case where the user of hand loads was punished.

" the chambers have been reamed to accept .38 Special" Are you sure? Have you measured the chambers to see if they were bored out to 38 Special length?

Remember, the 38 S&W (.3865" base diameter) cartridge is larger in diameter than the 38 Special (.379" base diameter). Because your Victory M&P was built on the same frame and cylinder as a 38 Special M&P, a 38 Special cartridge will fit very easily into a 38 S&W chamber. You wouldn't be the first to be confused by the difference (see my previous post).

The only consequence of doing so is that strong 38 Special brass expands, at least toward the mouth, to 38 S&W diameter, and the smaller diameter bullet sort of rattles down the larger barrel....thus the poor accuracy reported (and I've verified!) when doing so.

I've read that, after WWII, large numbers of 38 S&W were re-barreled to 38 Special, without changing the cylinders. Obviously, the brass would still expand too much; I've not heard of the accuracy of said "conversions."

 

[DWalt]

I have owned and fired several .38/200 conversion V-models with .38 Special ammunition. I have never tried loading an unconverted .38/200 chamber with a .38 Special cartridge. I have always assumed the .38 Special cartridge would not chamber, but that is just an assumption. But if a .38 Special cartridge will in fact chamber, then why were the .38/200 chambers reamed out?

I have found that .357-.358" lead bullets shoot reasonably well in the .38 S&W barrel at least at closer ranges (15 yards or less). I have pulled numerous lead RN bullets from antique .38 S&W dud rounds, and measured their diameters to be a lot closer to .357 than .360.