Not news, but no more work on Gen 3 guns from factory

[Fastbolt]

...

At the least, copy Ruger's business model. They no longer support the Six revolvers. If you need service on them, you send it in to them and they either give you a choice of a new production revolver, free of charge, or some guys have paid cost, so a new GP100 that normally sells for 600 will cost you 300.

S&W has been doing that for years.

I returned an "original" (cutaway grip; 7-rd magazine) 3913TSW to the factory for a guy when I discovered during an inspection that his frame had developed a small, and really weird, crack at the front of the dustcover. When I spoke to them on the phone they said they no longer had any of the original "cutaway" 3913TSW frames they could use to rebuild his gun. Instead, they gave him a new production 3913TSW at no charge as a warranty replacement.

Knew another guy who had an early 4013. His gun had the camming lugs go out of spec at the top, which is an unrepairable problem. They had no left-over 4013's hidden away in their vault, and it was a discontinued (obsolete) model, so they offered him his choice of some other current production pistols as a free warranty replacement.

Both of those guys were original owners, BTW.

I could go on and list other instances I know about, and a lot more I've heard reported as having happened.

Also, it might be relevant to bear in mind that the limited lifetime warranty wasn't extended to the public (like it had been doing with LE for a while) until sometime in the early 90's (I think it was), and it was for the original owners of the guns, not the "guns". Yeah, the company's often been very, very liberal in their handling of issues for some used guns as "warranty" repairs, but that's them being generous, as it's not exactly written into their policy. (Sure, there were/are some exceptions, like refurbed training/demo guns, for which they offered to "transfer" the warranty coverage to the next buyer.)

As long as the company is willing to continue to repair/support the guns for repairs ... for the original owners ... it's annoying that retail direct-to-buyer sales of many 3rd gen parts are becoming scarce or unavailable, or have to be located through 3rd party vendors, but it's not exactly like the company has suddenly "failed" the present owners of guns bought used.

I've had to jump through some hoops and make some calls to try and get some assorted parts & assemblies that aren't being stocked for anything other than in-house repairs (not even available for purchase by armorers in many cases).

Fortunately, in most cases those are parts that seldom require replacement for a repair purpose, and I've been told they don't bother maintaining much inventory on parts like that, and didn't even when the guns were still in production (other than what was needed for production, of course).

In other cases I've just had to be patient and wait for them to make their infrequent vendor orders, which could take up to several months now and again.

In a way, it's a bit sad, but maybe if more people had been so enthused about buying later production 3rd gen's, and had been willing to step up and pay the going MSRP's, maybe the guns might've remained catalog line that was profitable enough to remain in production.

As it is, the 1911 enthusiasts have kept the SW1911/SW1911E series sales running strong, and that market segment appears as though it's not going to show much sign of the sustained, amazing demand going away any time soon.

 

[VTHokiesDuckHunter]

Easy choice they are forcing here. Unless I find really good deals on mint 3rd gens, and I love them, my next 3rd gens will be metal SIGs. Like the P239 SAS Gen II's. Maybe buy another Hi-Power. Other than revolvers, and maybe one more 1911, I don't see myself buying anymore S&W's.

With the popularity of their metal 1911's, and classic revolvers like 686's, I'm still really surprised they won't do custom shop or limited runs of classics like 952's and 3913's.

 

[ladder13]

..............the 1911 enthusiasts have kept the SW1911/SW1911E series sales running strong, and that market segment appears as though it's not going to show much sign of the sustained, amazing demand going away any time soon.

True that

 

[TexasRaider]

....when and where in this world can you buy a product, own it and wear it out for decades and then get it replaced with the newest style available... I mean really guys....

That's true, if one want's an M&P, which many don't. It's probably the one and only pistol I want less than a Glock. Don't know about others, but 3rd Gens are brilliant, tanks that were made the way a pistol should be made - tough, reliable and distinctly American. The M&P, functionality aside, is nothing but S&W's second attempt to try to out-glock Glock. An ugly copy of an ugly gun is no great replacement or prize, to me, for a good 3rd Gen.

I get that Smith felt they had to do something to compete with the tidal wave of polymer striker fired nonsense, but that doesn't mean a 3904 is useless now. I wouldn't take 10 brand new M&P anything's for my nearly showroom condition early 4506.

Just an opinion, and not fair probably, since marketwise S&W is between a 'Glock and hard place'.....ok, ok, sorry, horrible I know, I was up late last night, not enough sleep....

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Every year 3rd Gen parts are costing S&W money in warehouse space ,and the parts themselves have to be written down for depreciation on S&Ws reports.

I'm no accountant but if they're depreciating the value of that inventory, & receiving a write-off for tax purposes, & then periodically raising the selling/retail price of that inventory, aren't they benefitting twice? How's that a bad thing?

.

 

[turbo38gn]

Hmmmm.... gonna have to do another family portrait of my M&P's since they have grown considerably since the last photo.. they look beautiful to me...

Just thinking... if the 3rd gen are so great... why would they break.. or even need to be sent in for anything. So really, this whole thread is moot, since one should never break!!!

One more thought.. I own 3 model 39-2's... love em, beautiful gun, triggers suck but they shoot well.... I shoot and carry my M&P's regularly.... I look at and fondle my 39's occasionally..

 

[TTSH]

It all depends on who you talk to. I called about getting a dimple grip to replace the non-dimple one on my used 5904. One CS rep told me they don't sell it and I'd have to send the gun in on my dime. I said no thanks and hung up. I called 3 hours later and got another CS rep that looked up the year it was made, asked for my address and said he'd send one out right away free of charge which I received 3 days later.

I, too, have had very mixed results calling CS the last couple years in regard to the infamous 3rd Gen grips recall.

In one case, I was sent a new (post-recall) replacement grip immediately at no charge. No hassle or argument whatsoever! Very cool!

In another case (for a different gun), I was essentially told to go fry ice. I was told that there was no way S&W was going to honor a safety recall that old.

In some other cases, I got a mix of answers, arguments and excuses but never any post-recall grips. One famous line I was handed by CS: "If they haven't broken by now, they'll never break"! Great way to address a safety recall.

In yet another case, (for yet another 3rd Gen), I was told they would send me a used post-recall grip just taken off a returned gun being stripped for parts because "that was all they had... no more new ones." They promised me that the grip was in decent shape.

Well, I've posted the result before: It was a cracked, chipped and otherwise damaged grip for a completely different 3rd Gen and different frame size than I had requested. And the dimple? Obviously and sloppily applied to a pre-recall grip with a soldering iron. Apparently S&W CS has a cruel and rather twisted sense of humor at times.

Now I just get on the waiting list and buy the post-recall grips I need when they come into stock at Midway or elsewhere. It is no longer worth my time, the arguing and the frustration of trying to get them out of S&W CS via the recall.

 

[TTSH]

It should be noted that excess inventory on a company's balance sheet is considered a bad thing to have, because its an asset that loses value on the reporting statements. Every year 3rd Gen parts are costing S&W money in warehouse space, and the parts themselves have to be written down for depreciation on S&W's reports.

Just some perspective on why the company is in such a hurry to go all-M&P. The sooner LE agencies ditch their 3rd Gens means the sooner S&W can totally quit supporting the pistols and can sell/write off the parts inventory and be done with it.

This confuses me a little bit. I mean, how much excess warehouse space, and at what cost, can we be talking about for these 3rd Gen parts?

And if there are that many 3rd Gen parts left in stock in a big warehouse somewhere, why is it so damn hard to get the parts we need or want?

Sounds like you are implying that whatever 3rd Gen parts are left in S&W's possession are maybe being retained for LE use only. Could it be that after the last LE agency converts to plastic wonders that there could be a massive dump of these remaining 3rd Gen parts into the marketplace?

Now that would be something to watch for.

 

[WR Moore]

When you start talking about costs of storing parts, you need to talk to a specialist known as a cost accountant. I'll try to fill in, I expect I'll miss some things.

Stored parts cost: the original factory cost to produce, part of the expense of the building they're stored in and it's operating costs, taxes and lost income on that money if it had been properly invested, part of the salary of the folks who manage, inventory, sort and ship the parts.

At some unknown time it simply becomes too expensive to keep at it for the amount of revenue generated and the parts get sold off to places like Numrich. In some cases, the factory has a list of folks they've sold off their inventory to and will provide that.

Fastbolt mentioned the FBI HRT and the Browning HP. The SAS used rawther stouter ammunition than the FBI apparently did. I expect their training schedule is (or was at that time) more robust also. They experienced a lot of broken guns, but I have no clue as to number of rounds involved.

About lost skills....some companies are very forthright in trying to capture the experience of employees before their departure. Others are less so and/or may restrict the effort to folks in the executive offices. In some cases, it's concentrated in the design/manufacturing end of things. Cost/benefit ratio may be in play here also.

My current employer operates on the "tribal knowledge" principle far more than it should. Despite that, I've been unsuccessful in getting them to establish a formal program to capture knowledge before it's lost to retirement. The best I've been able to do is my own private effort, which I've been working on over two years. Someone may have "worked with" a skilled worker, that they learned anything and retained it is no sure thing.

 

[1775usmarine]

I really enjoy the loads of info I get from everyone here about 3rd gens. I have 4 myself and enjoy taking them out to play. My 4506-1 has finally broke the tab everyone questions which makes a click when not straight, but still runs like a champ. I do plan on stocking up on parts for those just in case moments. I would like to see a 3rd party vendor come along who offers parts and services like with the 1911 and sticks around for a while. Because of this site and some of the videos out there shared by you all I learned how to fully disassemble/reassemble my 3rd gens which would make part change out cheaper so long as it doesn't need adjustments made with gauges.

 

[TexasRaider]

My 4506-1 has finally broke the tab everyone questions which makes a click when not straight, but still runs like a champ...

Do you have a pic of that? I've heard that "a tab" breaks, but I guess I've missed the specifics on it.

 

[ladder13]

Wow, this is going nowhere fast but I'll kick in a grand and add my vote to nominate
18DAI CEO. I'd also like to nominate BMCM chief engineer. Now, lets get this ball rolling !!

We're up to $7,000 just $ 844,993,000 away from our goal.
I doubt the stock falls much cause they're selling all the J frames, 1911's and M&P's they can produce. And hillary coming to the WH.
The other plan is to raise enough money to buy the parts warehouse in KY

 

[TTSH]

The other plan is to raise enough money to buy the parts warehouse in KY

Now you are talking!

I'm in for $184.13 (my entire life savings, or at least what's left of it as of 3 PM this afternoon.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

WOW! What a thread.....

I don't like striker fired pistols much, I don't like tricky triggers, and I ain't crazy about polymer pistols. I'm old so I have curmudgeon license. I think 3rd Gen pistols are the bees knees (okay, REVOLVERS are my favorites but that's a separate subject), I only have a few, I don't shoot them enough, and I don't abuse them - and I don't expect them to break. If one does, well, my LGS has competent gunsmiths to help me. (I admit I have a spare firing pin and a barrel for my 6906).

I understand lifetime warranty at S&W to mean if they can't fix it they'll replace it, maybe at cost (been there, done that with them) so, yessir, I imagine if I break a 3rd Gen they'll offer me a new M&P or a revolver. I'll worry about it if I break one. But I understand the long term plan and the limits on warehousing and inventory.

That's true, if one want's an M&P, which many don't. It's probably the one and only pistol I want less than a Glock. Don't know about others, but 3rd Gens are brilliant, tanks that were made the way a pistol should be made - tough, reliable and distinctly American. The M&P, functionality aside, is nothing but S&W's second attempt to try to out-glock Glock. An ugly copy of an ugly gun is no great replacement or prize, to me, for a good 3rd Gen.

I have to agree with that. Glocks are only allowed in my house if one of my friends has to carry one. I am not interested.

I get that Smith felt they had to do something to compete with the tidal wave of polymer striker fired nonsense, but that doesn't mean a 3904 is useless now. I wouldn't take 10 brand new M&P anything's for my nearly showroom condition early 4506.

I have to agree with TexasRaider on that, too, and that's the reason, presently, that my safe queen 5903 SSV has remained a safe queen. My 6906 fills that 9mm void nicely.

Just an opinion, and not fair probably, since marketwise S&W is between a 'Glock and hard place'.....ok, ok, sorry, horrible I know, I was up late last night, not enough sleep....

Get some sleep podnuh! When you wake up in Austin, Bob Wills is still the king!!!!

 

[kbm6893]

Agreed,but i'm not sure about this:

you send it in to them and they either give you a choice of a new production revolver, free of charge, or some guys have paid cost, so a new GP100 that normally sells for 600 will cost you 300.

Sure it fulfills the company's obligation, but for us this means being sent an M&P of some sort.

I agree. But a free M&P when a 3rd gen is no longer operational is better than not getting anything at all. They don't owe me new 3rd gen guns, but they do owe me the life term warranty they sold to me. At least for longer. Some agencies are still issuing 3rd gen guns. They should continue to service them.

 

[gtoppcop]

From what Roz Sousa told me, Vito retired this Spring. He's done some fine work on my guns. He's the one who did the slide milling on my legacy 3rd Gens for the spring-loaded decocker.

With that said, Karl Sokol is my "Go-To" guy for all things 3rd Generation. He has done 2 of my guns with 2 more being at his place now.

The only two entities that I would trust to my 3rd Generation needs is Karl and Novak's. Mike, Ryan and Titus at Novak's have done several 3rd Generation sight projects for me over the last year and have much to recommend them. The turn around time for them is about 1-week.

Another possibility may be Cylinder and Slide. As with anything good, the wait is commensurate with the quality of work. Karl's work is truly peerless. Since he's a one-man shop and does quite a bit of work for our forward-deployed forces, you'll wait. I can tell you without question that he truly is worth the wait.

 

[housedog]

...Karl's work is truly peerless. Since he's a one-man shop and does quite a bit of work for our forward-deployed forces, you'll wait. I can tell you without question that he truly is worth the wait.

Agreed, I have been doing business with Karl for about 2 decades. He is a true craftsman and worth the wait. He has never done Gen 3 S&W for me before, but I was thrilled to learn he thinks highly of them and wants the work. My 4563TSW left for his place on Wednesday.

S&W's decision to pull out of doing this sort of work, for whatever reason, thankfully got me to call the guy who I needed to give this project to anyway, I just did not understand it at the time.

 

[BelAir56]

same thing happened after I retired after 41 years, there is only so much people are willing to try to learn to do the job.

 

[BelAir56]

my 3913 cracked the frame and they gave me a Shield 9, I was surprised AND happy.

 

[TTSH]

I understand lifetime warranty at S&W to mean if they can't fix it they'll replace it, maybe at cost (been there, done that with them) so, yessir, I imagine if I break a 3rd Gen they'll offer me a new M&P or a revolver.

...a free M&P when a 3rd gen is no longer operational is better than not getting anything at all. They don't owe me new 3rd gen guns, but they do owe me the life term warranty they sold to me. At least for longer.

My 3913 cracked the frame and they gave me a Shield 9, I was surprised AND happy.

Sometimes it is useful to actually re-read S&W's so-called "Lifetime Warranty" (actually called their "Lifetime Service Policy").

"Smith & Wesson’s Lifetime Service Policy begins after the [1 year] warranty period has expired. Smith & Wesson will repair, without charge, for the lifetime of the original owner, any Smith & Wesson handgun purchased on or after February 1, 1989, and any M&P series rifles, that is found to have a defect in material or workmanship. Eligibility for this Lifetime Service Policy requires returning the Product Registration Card within 30 days of purchase.

The Lifetime Service Policy covers functional defects; it does not include the firearm’s finish, grips, magazines or sights. The Lifetime Service Policy is in addition to and not an extension of the Smith & Wesson Warranty."