OC vs CC
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Ogandydancer
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North Carolina is and, as far as I know has always been open carry. I however prefer CC especially in the area where I live. We have a lot of sheeple's in this area who would probably go ballistic if they saw other than LEO'S open carrying, on the other hand in some of the smaller bergs and in and around public hunting lands it's pretty common and not much thought about it.
However on the other hand the drug store I do business with is in a very heavy traffic area and one of the pharmacists OC's all the time and I have never heard any comment about it.
However on the other hand the drug store I do business with is in a very heavy traffic area and one of the pharmacists OC's all the time and I have never heard any comment about it.
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Mainsail
Member
The premise of OC vs CC always assumes it must be one or the other. I carry openly at times, I also carry concealed at times, but most of the time it’s indifferent carry. I view the wear of a pistol to be no different than the wear of a watch or a pocket knife; it’s just another accouterment and sometimes you see it- sometimes you don’t- sometimes its outline is visible- sometimes it makes no trace.
There is nothing in our concealed carry law that requires concealment; it merely allows the extra option of carrying it hidden. Once you get in a vehicle here, even OC becomes CC, so we usually get the CPL to cover everything. If the weather is moderate I can conceal under a jacket, and then take the jacket off once I get inside a restaurant or store.
The argument against OC usually revolves around the mythical ‘element of surprise’ as though the bad-guy community lives under a rock somewhere and CC is a unique and peculiar, and your resistance to violence will in some way surprise an attacker. The truth of the matter is that both OC and CC employ the same surprise (if you can call it that) and it’s only the timing of the disclosure that is different.
- OC employs its surprise during the approach phase, before the actual attack, when it’s easy for the attacker to scrub his plan.
- CC employs its surprise after the attack has already begun, has momentum, and when the attacker will find it difficult to break off even if he wants to.
So yes, get the permit or license. Figure out what works best for you in your situation, think it through thoroughly, and go with that.
There is nothing in our concealed carry law that requires concealment; it merely allows the extra option of carrying it hidden. Once you get in a vehicle here, even OC becomes CC, so we usually get the CPL to cover everything. If the weather is moderate I can conceal under a jacket, and then take the jacket off once I get inside a restaurant or store.
The argument against OC usually revolves around the mythical ‘element of surprise’ as though the bad-guy community lives under a rock somewhere and CC is a unique and peculiar, and your resistance to violence will in some way surprise an attacker. The truth of the matter is that both OC and CC employ the same surprise (if you can call it that) and it’s only the timing of the disclosure that is different.
- OC employs its surprise during the approach phase, before the actual attack, when it’s easy for the attacker to scrub his plan.
- CC employs its surprise after the attack has already begun, has momentum, and when the attacker will find it difficult to break off even if he wants to.
So yes, get the permit or license. Figure out what works best for you in your situation, think it through thoroughly, and go with that.
A few thoughts...
First, there's a time and place for open carry. Pharmacist, night convenience store staff, and other occupations that are performed in a controlled environment and in business prone to armed robbery, are situtianes where advertising that you are armed isn't a bad idea.
But that's pretty much it. Doing it anywhere else puts you at a tactical disadvantage and it can make some folks uncomfortable. We don't help the 2A cause making non-gun people uncomfortable and CC is a great way to uphold your right to self defense, without making other people nervous.
Even as a gun nut, when I see someone open carrying in NC, the first thing that comes to mind is "why can't he get a concealed carry permit?" And then I keep a close eye on him.
Second, the practical advantage of concealed carry is that I can still take my concealed handgun in Starbucks, Target, Chipolte, and all the other businesses where the 2A activist crowd made customers so nervous that those businesses asked people not to open carry any more.
Third, if we were smarter as a community we'd get in bed with the liberals and present the high fees required for concealed carry in many states as discriminatory and contrary to equality when comes to 2A rights.
In South Dakota for example, the basic concealed carry permit costs $10, with no training and about a 3 day processing period. (although their new enhanced permit will up the fee to about $100 and impose a training requirement.)
In contrast, VA and NC have training requirements that will cost you $80 to $125 to meet via a commercial instructor (when the courses could be covered for free or at low cost by police departments, sheriff offices, etc), followed by fees of $50 (VA) and $90 (NC), bringing the total cost to between $130 and somewhere just north of $200.
Now way back in the day, many liberals were both pro gun and anti-fee when it came to concealed carry permits. They viewed it (quite correctly) as disproportionately impacting people of color, who were both more likely to be poor than white, and more likely to live in crime ridden areas with poor police coverage. It was the ultimate expression of 2A rights, presented from a very practical point of view.
Unfortunately, somewhere along the way we lost them and much of the rhetoric we both hear and speak now just further widens the divide. It would be in much more in our interests to promote ownership of firearms for self defense as making even more sense for urban populations in high crime areas, and push for both reduced fees and national reciprocity as means to level the playing field for would be permit holders of any color or class.
First, there's a time and place for open carry. Pharmacist, night convenience store staff, and other occupations that are performed in a controlled environment and in business prone to armed robbery, are situtianes where advertising that you are armed isn't a bad idea.
But that's pretty much it. Doing it anywhere else puts you at a tactical disadvantage and it can make some folks uncomfortable. We don't help the 2A cause making non-gun people uncomfortable and CC is a great way to uphold your right to self defense, without making other people nervous.
Even as a gun nut, when I see someone open carrying in NC, the first thing that comes to mind is "why can't he get a concealed carry permit?" And then I keep a close eye on him.
Second, the practical advantage of concealed carry is that I can still take my concealed handgun in Starbucks, Target, Chipolte, and all the other businesses where the 2A activist crowd made customers so nervous that those businesses asked people not to open carry any more.
Third, if we were smarter as a community we'd get in bed with the liberals and present the high fees required for concealed carry in many states as discriminatory and contrary to equality when comes to 2A rights.
In South Dakota for example, the basic concealed carry permit costs $10, with no training and about a 3 day processing period. (although their new enhanced permit will up the fee to about $100 and impose a training requirement.)
In contrast, VA and NC have training requirements that will cost you $80 to $125 to meet via a commercial instructor (when the courses could be covered for free or at low cost by police departments, sheriff offices, etc), followed by fees of $50 (VA) and $90 (NC), bringing the total cost to between $130 and somewhere just north of $200.
Now way back in the day, many liberals were both pro gun and anti-fee when it came to concealed carry permits. They viewed it (quite correctly) as disproportionately impacting people of color, who were both more likely to be poor than white, and more likely to live in crime ridden areas with poor police coverage. It was the ultimate expression of 2A rights, presented from a very practical point of view.
Unfortunately, somewhere along the way we lost them and much of the rhetoric we both hear and speak now just further widens the divide. It would be in much more in our interests to promote ownership of firearms for self defense as making even more sense for urban populations in high crime areas, and push for both reduced fees and national reciprocity as means to level the playing field for would be permit holders of any color or class.
keith44spl
Member
Oh Yeah.........Here We Go!!!
Sir, please do what your comfortable doing.
I know from bout half a century of carrying a personal sidearm, OC works as well as CC.
Why, I do both at the same time, most times.
I ain't never been shot first nor kilt in my whole life for being armed out in public.
It's a personal decision and I personal find it refreshing,
that others also have the intestinal fortitude too cling to their inalienable rights.
That Is All.
.
Sir, please do what your comfortable doing.
I know from bout half a century of carrying a personal sidearm, OC works as well as CC.
Why, I do both at the same time, most times.
I ain't never been shot first nor kilt in my whole life for being armed out in public.
It's a personal decision and I personal find it refreshing,
that others also have the intestinal fortitude too cling to their inalienable rights.
That Is All.
.
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I've been OCing for over 4 years now. Most of the anti-OC arguments heard here are pretty much null and void. It comes down to a) legality, b) how well your local LEOs are educated (it took a while in AL where I started OCing, now it's cool) and c) personal preference.
In terms of a) legality, you say OC is legal, then mention you need a permit. I *assume* this permit is to carry concealed or in a vehicle? You're in MI, sooner or later, you'll probably have to wear a good sized jacket or coat. One that pretty much prohibits OCing. I know it does me down here in TN when it's cold outside.
So whether or not you decide to OC, you'll probably still need to get the permit. You'll also need the permit if and when you decide to carry outside MI.
Good luck!
In terms of a) legality, you say OC is legal, then mention you need a permit. I *assume* this permit is to carry concealed or in a vehicle? You're in MI, sooner or later, you'll probably have to wear a good sized jacket or coat. One that pretty much prohibits OCing. I know it does me down here in TN when it's cold outside.
So whether or not you decide to OC, you'll probably still need to get the permit. You'll also need the permit if and when you decide to carry outside MI.
Good luck!
Besides the fact that I carried open in some situations, and concealed in others, based on the objective, I prefer having a CC permit because of the area I live (lots of folks who would call 911, legal or not), and the states I travel in where OC is not legal, and CC requires a permit.
Just makes life easier, as all options are open.
Just makes life easier, as all options are open.
Lightfoot4
Member
First off, if a CC permit is available, GET IT. You can still open carry if you want, but the CC option will be there if you want/need it.
I'm in NC (like a couple of others). We have open carry here, but you don't see it as much. Saw my first in quite a while in Applebees last weekend. It does make some people nervous. The last time I open carried was in a McDonalds quite a few years ago. Was approached by the manager saying someone complained about it and that it "wasn't allowed". In NC, a business can put up a "no CC" sign and you can't legally carry concealed in the store. They didn't have the sign, but I didn't want to be the reason for them to put up the sign, so I said no problem and put the gun the car. I've carried concealed ever since.
I'm in NC (like a couple of others). We have open carry here, but you don't see it as much. Saw my first in quite a while in Applebees last weekend. It does make some people nervous. The last time I open carried was in a McDonalds quite a few years ago. Was approached by the manager saying someone complained about it and that it "wasn't allowed". In NC, a business can put up a "no CC" sign and you can't legally carry concealed in the store. They didn't have the sign, but I didn't want to be the reason for them to put up the sign, so I said no problem and put the gun the car. I've carried concealed ever since.
[TIC]That's all very fine, and makes perfect sense, but don't you have a point to prove? You could easily prove a point, either in McDonalds, or here on the S&W forum.[/TIC]
I carry both ways about 50/50 depends on my mood and where I am going. Sometimes I don't want to have to worry about my situational awareness as much as when I open carry. In general I could care less about making the anti's uncomfortable. As long as I am following the laws they can and will get over it. If open carry makes me a target, so be it, I am ready to take on all threats. If your not prepared to take on threats then you should not be carrying. I also do not patronize businesses that restrict my right to open carry. Crawling off of my soap box now, carry on 
ChattanoogaPhil
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I'm not aware of any credible data on handgun surprise personal defense or open carry target on your back . Is there any?
However, there does exist a survey of felons regarding armed potential victims. Among the information collected...
Fifty-six percent of the felons surveyed agreed that "A criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun;"
A 57% majority agreed that "Most criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."
Significantly, almost 40% said there was at least one time when the criminal "decided not to do a crime because [he] knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun."
https://www.nraila.org/articles/20030909/the-armed-criminal-in-america
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TexasRaider
Member
There's no empirical proof that trying to copulate with an angry orangutan will automatically get you killed, either. But it's pretty darned stupid, spits in the fact of common sense and is pretty offensive to those standing around who happen to see you try it.
Stats or not, intelligence and logic dictate "don't be the first guy to die doing something so obviously unnecessary."
But much, much more importantly...
Still love you all!
Stats or not, intelligence and logic dictate "don't be the first guy to die doing something so obviously unnecessary."
But much, much more importantly...
Still love you all!
Aticus
Member
Thanks steelslaver, you put into words what I couldn't. That's why I don't open carry even though I can.
Mainsail
Member
I never understood all the vitriol against open carry, and after over ten years of doing so, am still waiting for a logical or intelligent argument against the practice. I often see fantasies about what might happen, but nothing based on either empirical evidence (which we all acknowledge doesn’t exist) or a reasonably articulate explanation of why a particular fantasy should be considered likely enough to stop OCing.
So we end up with the folks that will do a drive-by, saying it is tactically unsound, but never articulate why. If asked, even directly, they’re gone.
Then there is the argument that ‘it makes people nervous’ – if you ask them how they know anyone was nervous they say it makes them nervous, so they’re projecting their own anxiety on everyone else.
The debate goes better in person, because then you can actually get the anti-OC person to answer, vs in a forum where people don’t engage because they know they don’t have an intelligent argument. I can usually get the anti-OC person to admit, after all the fantasies and speculation are debunked, that:
- They just never really thought about it. Flat out never bothered to weigh the issue objectively and just repeated what they’ve heard or read. This is the most common admission.
- They are just uncomfortable carrying (OC or CC) a firearm; even though they know they are legal, they still feel like they are doing something illegal.
- Occasionally I will get an admission of shame; like they feel carrying a handgun somehow makes them look weak.
- Had one (older curmudgeon sort of guy) admit he preferred concealed because he wanted someone to start some trouble just so he could teach them a lesson. He didn’t want to shoot anyone necessarily, just wanted to put a scare in a few punks. I was glad to have gotten him to rethink that tactic.
I really don’t care one whit whether you like OC or hate it, I only wish people would be honest and admit the real reason for their objection, instead of wasting bandwidth with a drive-by posting that doesn’t add to the discussion. I wasn’t a supporter of OC ten years ago either- I was in the first group I listed above- didn’t really think about it and just objected to it with the same sound-bites used in every OC thread. Then I gave it honest study….
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ChattanoogaPhil
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There's no empirical proof that trying to copulate with an angry orangutan will automatically get you killed, either. But it's pretty darned stupid, spits in the fact of common sense and is pretty offensive to those standing around who happen to see you try it.
Stats or not, intelligence and logic dictate "don't be the first guy to die doing something so obviously unnecessary."
But much, much more importantly...
Still love you all!
I'll defer to your knowledge in matters of copulating with orangutans, but we're talking about gun carry here.
Your previous statement ---> "Truth: No one, and I mean NO ONE is afraid of an OC because they’re wearing a gun. No one, period. That is a fallacy and a joke"
Do you have any credible evidence for this "truth" that refutes professors Rossi and Wright?
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I have lots of reasons, little empirical evidence, so I won't argue. It's the 21st century, we're halfway through 2015, this is not 1815 or 1915.
You want a reason to not open carry?
It's arrogant and it's rude.
It has nothing to do with inalienable rights, permits, or because you can - and even Robert Heinlein wrote, more than a half century ago, that an armed society is a polite society*. But a small percentage armed society is not the same thing. Ipso facto, open carry is impolite.
*
"Beyond This Horizon" (c) Robert Heinlein 1942
keith44spl
Member
Well, jest color me rude, arrogant and impolite....
No not really, but thanks for the belly laugh of the day!
.
TexasRaider
Member
Anyway, my 'truth' is just real world experience, 20 years of LEO work and understanding that thugs jump cops all the time, cops who are in uniform and carrying openly. A Professor may quantify the world from the safety of his office, but in the real world of street criminals, they simply ain't afraid.
I'm not fight picking and don't want to start a flame war. No point, you can't convince a man who thinks the sky is pink it's not. Fair enough. But instead of constantly trying to tear down the argument of someone who simply disagrees, why not approach your position from a common sense point of view?
Just because you have not been targeted doesn't mean you can't be or won't be. The fact you haven't been yet may be more a factor of grace or luck than any towering intimidation over evil doer's that openly carrying presumably offers. Common sense, bro. Why tell anyone what you have, how many rounds you have and where that instrument of defense is?
If you presume you need to carry a weapon because some potential threats exists, why scream out in waves of HD clarity "HERE'S MY GUN, ON MY RIGHT SIDE, IN A NON RETENTION HOLSTER, HERE IT IS. I HAVE A 1911-A1, I HAVE 8 ROUNDS AT MY DISPOSAL. JUST SO YOU KNOW."
SWAT teams and the military don't call the bad guys an hour before they arrive and tell them how many good guys are coming, what kind of weapons they have, when they'll arrive and from what direction. Hate to use a pornographically overused word, but "tactically" speaking, why would one throw away every "tactical" advantage like that? For what? Because "I can."?
For me personally, that's not a good enough reason to risk, even if I'm the first one ever, being an OC that gets keyholed and relieved of my weapon and have it possibly used on me and my spouse. No thanks. My hide and my wife's life are worth a heck of a lot more than "Because I can." And I'm sure the first guy who gets distracted by the pack animals of the street and is being 'degunned' might be thinking "Wait, this never happened before! The stats show this shouldn't be happening!" That'll comfort him, I'm sure.
I don't need lawyers, professors or NRA stats to provide me with common sense. If a predator isn't afraid to jump a cop in uniform, acting under the color of law, who is open carrying, and that attack will bring heavy criminal charges, then he won't have any fear at all about attacking an untrained, average civilian carrying his piece around, not dutifully keeping his 540 perceptual vigilance, walking in 'white mode'.
Simply put, a street carnivore who ain't afraid of 6'1" uniformed street cop or state trooper is NOT going to be afraid of Joe Six pack toting around his plastic Austrian pop gun.
Look, carry openly if you want. Fine. Your skin. But throwing around Internet stats and straw man '2nd Amendment right' arguments can't change the fact that OC throws away the most critical elements of carrying a gun for self protection - anonymity and surprise.
But on this topic, I'm 10-8. The opposition argument can't be said any clearer, and besides I've had my enjoyable fill of "Let's BBQ Anyone That Doesn't March In Lockstep On OC Carry!" It was fun while it lasted, but this topic has become wearisome, and frankly there is nothing new to see here, on either side of the debate. Carry open if it's worth the risk to you, don't if it's not.
Peace and good will to all, God bless and may no one here ever have to find out which side of this argument is most correct.
Via Con Dios.
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Not this time.
I love everybody!
I love everybody!
TexasRaider
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