Odd Design Flaw in 1903 Hand Ejector

[SmithSwede]

Well, maybe not a full blown “design flaw,” but I found this to be an interesting little glitch.

This is a 5 screw, S&W post war 1903 hand-ejector, regular I-frame. I think made in 1949.

The problem is that if the cylinder is in a certain position, one of the ejected cases can get caught in the notch of the thumb piece, preventing ejection. Obviously it doesn’t happen all the time, but I noticed it happening about 3 times in an an afternoon of plinking today.

I also had a Colt Pocket Positive with me today, and I confirmed that it is impossible for the same blockage to occur on the Colt.

I wonder if that is why S&W later switched to the flat style thumb piece.

 

[alwslate]

Looks more like a user problem than a design flaw.

 

[sceva]

That's why you tip them barrel up when emptying

 

[SmithSwede]

Sorry, but your responses don’t make any sense.

This glitch is not an operator error. And it has nothing to do with the orientation of the barrel (I always elevate the barrel on ejection; the photos were just to illustrate the situation)

The issue is that it is possible for the fully opened cylinder on the S&W to be oriented such that full ejection is not possible. Why? Because the rim of a case can get trapped in the square notch of the thumb piece. Try it yourself !

And this is impossible on similar sized Colt. On the Colt, there is no possible position of the cylinder in which a case can get trapped by the cylinder release piece.

These are simple facts based on mechanical geometry.

Which is why I asked if maybe this little glitch is why S&W transitioned to a flat latch.

 

[4K2022]

1896 S&W 32 Long hand ejector Hold Open Device can be seen attached to the end of the yoke.
I think you’re right.
Form follows function! Look at the intricacies of this,, little MECHANIZED “stand alone” design/ device,, WHY ?
I believe the intention WAS to eliminate the issue you’re describing.

 

[alwslate]

Sorry OP but the solution to the so called "design flaw" is simple. Do not position the cyl in exactly the right position to create the extraction problem.

 

[SmithSwede]

4K2022–thanks, that is very interesting. I wasn’t aware of that design. Now I’m really curious.

Alwslate—yes, obviously, if you never permit the cylinder to be in that position, it won’t happen. The problem is on this S&W, if you are trying to eject quickly, this tie up can occur. In comparison, this is impossible on the Colt. On the Colt you don’t have to try to avoid a problematic position of the cylinder, because it doesn’t exist.

 

[alwslate]

Well then just sell your S&W and buy the "better" Colt.

 

[Retired W4]

Not doubting that ejecting problem can occur, but what is a "post war 1903"? Maybe it's just the collector nerd coming out of me.

To alleviate the problem use your left thumb to rotate the cylinder 1/16th of an inch and the empty casing will fall out. Ejection complete.

 

[SmithSwede]

I don’t claim to be an expert on the proper nomenclature, but this is what I would call a pre-Model 30, made in 1949. So it is a post-war Model 1903 Hand Ejector. 5 screw. With a leaf mainspring, not a coil spring. Which I think means it is a regular I frame, not the later “improved I frame” or the even later J frame.

I specify all those details because I don’t know if this issue existed in earlier, or later versions of this model. Does anyone know?

I’m pretty sure the later change to a flat latch would prevent the problem. And maybe the shape of the thumb piece on earlier models did not have this issue because the shape or placement was slightly different.

And yes, I know how to “fix” the problem. I’m just pointing out its existence, and wondering if people have information about this design and possible changes.

I already own the Colt, which is why I took the photo showing this condition is mechanically impossible on the similar sized Colt.

 

[Retired W4]

On the plus side; the 32 SWL is not a round you would normally bet your life on so a rapid reload will not be needed.

 

[Retired W4]

As for proper nomenclature, my letter for 535787 (June 24, 1949) calls it the 32 Hand Ejector, post WW II variation.

 

[Forty3Magnum]

What happens when this condition occurs and you release the ejector?

 

[Retired W4]

I believe they call that particular iteration of thumbpiece the double pinch. I don't think that condition would happen with any of the latches that came after that one. Maybe S&W noticed a problem.

 

[SmithSwede]

If you relax the pressure on the ejector rod and also rotate the cylinder clockwise a bit, you can clear the problem. I’m not saying it somehow “jams” the revolver.

I would describe it this way. I’m in the habit of ejecting the empty cases at a fairly rapid pace. Press thumb latch with right thumb while elevating muzzle to vertical, then pressing ejector rod with left thumb.

I probably shot about 200 rounds that afternoon, and noticed that sometimes you don’t get a clean ejection. Instead the case is trapped, and you have to fiddle a bit to clear that last case. I had never before seen a S&W thumb piece trap an empty case.

 

[Hondo44]

You have a .32 Hand Ejector I frame Post War Transitional Model. It’s a pre war gun with the addition of the the post war sliding bar hammer block safety. It was followed by the Improved I frame in 1952 which replaced the leaf mainspring with a coil spring and the flat latch thumbpiece. The next model is the Model of 1953 NEW I FRAME which is the pre model 30; yours is not a pre model.
The flat latch and the post war thumbpiece (without the notch of the double pinch pre war style) used on K and N frames after WWII replaced the flat latch on I and J frames and airweight K frames in 1966.
The quirk you experience is not real and therefore not eliminated by the post war thumb piece changes. And the changes were not because of a quirk; they were to eliminate extra machining steps and cost.

The problem you describe is because your cylinder is not fully opened when you extract the cases. Make sure when you elevate the barrel to extract the cases that you hold the cylinder all the way out to the left with your left side thumb. Also make sure the cylinder yoke opens 90 degrees so it’s parallel to the floor. When looking at the bottom of the gun, the yoke hinge must open far enough to hit the yoke hinge stop. If it doesn’t, that’s the problem; crud or something is binding the hinge.
For the first about 20 plus years of the 20th century a yoke stop detent was standard equipment for S&W hand ejector revolvers to keep the cylinder in the fully open position.

Typically a full stroke of the extractor is not required to unload the empty cases if the chambers are cleaned periodically.

However once Target grips were offered by S&W after the war a similar but real problem surfaced which resulted in a relief area (known as the football cutout) being cut in the top of the left side target grip panel starting in 1955.

Let us know what you find.

 

[SmithSwede]

You have a .32 Hand Ejector I frame Post War Transitional Model. It’s a pre war gun with the addition of the the post war sliding bar hammer block safety. It was followed by the Improved I frame in 1952 which replaced the leaf mainspring with a coil spring and the flat latch thumbpiece. The next model is the Model of 1953 NEW I FRAME which is the pre model 30; yours is not a pre model.
The flat latch and the post war thumbpiece (without the notch of the double pinch pre war style) used on K and N frames after WWII replaced the flat latch on I and J frames and airweight K frames in 1966.
The quirk you experience is not real and therefore not eliminated by the post war thumb piece changes. And the changes were not because of a quirk; they were to eliminate extra machining steps and cost.

The problem you describe is because your cylinder is not fully opened when you extract the cases. Make sure when you elevate the barrel to extract the cases that you hold the cylinder all the way out to the left with your left side thumb. Also make sure the cylinder yoke opens 90 degrees so it’s parallel to the floor. When looking at the bottom of the gun, the yoke hinge must open far enough to hit the yoke hinge stop. If it doesn’t, that’s the problem; crud or something is binding the hinge.
For the first about 20 plus years of the 20th century a yoke stop detent was standard equipment for S&W hand ejector revolvers to keep the cylinder in the fully open position.

Typically a full stroke of the extractor is not required to unload the empty cases if the chambers are cleaned periodically.

However once Target grips were offered by S&W after the war a similar but real problem surfaced which resulted in a relief area (known as the football cutout) being cut in the top of the left side target grip panel starting in 1955.

Let us know what you find.

Thanks Hondo44—now I know the correct description. Much obliged.

However, I can affirm an empty case can get trapped by the thump piece even when the cylinder is absolutely fully open. The gun has been fully disassembled, cleaned and oiled. There is no crud or dirt. No bent parts.

The yoke is at 90 degrees. The yoke cannot open further due to the metal flanges on the frame and yoke. Yet this trapping can still occur when the yoke is 100% open.

Full ejection is not possible. The trapped empty brass pushes the thumb piece backwards until it cannot travel further.

I think the thumb piece is original.

Guys. I’m not going crazy. Get out one of you own .32 revolvers and some empty shells and see for yourself!

Photos below show partially open yoke. Fully open yoke. And the trapped brass with a fully open yoke

 

[Hondo44]

You do have an issue but it’s an anomaly. I also have a .32 from 1949. And 4 other I frame .32s from 1914 to 1957. They all have 1/16” clearance between case rim and thumbpiece. I wish I had yours in hand to inspect. Something is out of spec.

Let’s start with the thumbpiece; how tall is it? Mine is 3/8”.
Mine sticks out off the frame surface 5/32”.
If you have the same dimensions the only other thing I can think of is the yoke stop at the hinge wasn’t cut deep enough at the factory. When my yoke is all the way open it actually is a little more than 90 degrees. A few .001” removed from the stop will make a big difference in how far the cylinder will swing out.

 

[Hondo44]

SmithSwede,
If you’re comfortable attempting a repair, it’s a fairly simple process.

Remove the yoke and cylinder assembly from the frame.
Remove the cylinder from the yoke by unscrewing the extractor rod. CAUTION: the rod has left hand threads, unscrew by turning counter clockwise. ( I and J frames were converted to left hand threaded extraction rods right after the war, more than 10 years before K and N frame rods were changed to left hand.)

Once the cylinder is removed from the yoke, tighten the yoke in a padded vise so you can use a fine file to slowly remove metal from the yoke stop. Try the yoke and cylinder in place often to check progress of the cylinder opening further.
When the extracted case clears thumbpiece by 1/16” you’re done. Polish the surface where you filed on the yoke stop and touch up with cold blue. Reassemble.

Enjoy shooting it with no extraction problems!

 

[SmithSwede]

Hondo44: Thanks very much for your detailed explanations. This is very helpful.

I’m going on vacation tomorrow for a couple of weeks, and so I won’t have a chance to measure things or attempt some kitchen table gunsmithing.

But I suspect you are right. This is maybe not a systemic or design issue for this model. Maybe my particular gun is just a hair out of spec.

Thanks again