Odd Victory Model

[jw mathews]

A friend of mine, residing in another state, was telling me on the phone about his Victory Model. He said it was purchased from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago, probably during the 1950's or early 60s. It is a 38 Special, stamped "US Navy" on the topstrap, with matching serials on cylinder & butt. (Yoke & yoke cut assembly numbers match also.)

This piece is most unusual in that the s/n is just over V26000yet the books say that nos V1-V40000 were a continuation of the British order for the 28/200s (38 S&W) with 5" barrels.

The other odd thing about his revolver is that it had been cut down to a 2" barrel, with no front lug and no front lockup, just like a Colt DA revolver.

Anyone know of other 38 Special Victories with serials below V40000? How about other guns cut down to 2" like my friend's?

 

[Pisgah]

Don't know about the serial # range, but the cut-down to 2", usually including boring out the cylinder to accept .38 Spec. cartridges, was a very popular conversion usually done in England prior to re-importation to the US. While this made them more salable, it takes away any collector value ,which can be considerable for a Navy-marked Victory -- the reason why many have been falsely Navy-marked by folks seeking to deceive.

 

[DWalt]

Navy-marked Victories exist in that SN area (mid-1942), and it may well be authentic. If there is no latch on the bottom of the barrel ahead of the ejector rod, the barrel has been shortened. I don't believe I have heard of any Navies being shipped with 2" barrels, but anything is possible. Good quality closeup pictures would help indicate if original. Sadly, even if it is, a chopped barrel would negate any collector value.

 

[opoefc]

A cut barrel, with out a lug, is an after market alteration. I've never seen an original factory 2 inch Victory Model stamped "US Navy. " Klein's Sporting Goods ran ads and articles in the 50's and 60s advertising these cut down guns for about $24.95. British ordered guns are sprinkled throughout the serial number range of V1 to V40000, and higher. Any book that says otherwise is incorrect. Ed.

 

[DWalt]

"Anyone know of other 38 Special Victories with serials below V40000?"

Some pre-Victories were chambered in .38 Special starting about April 1942, in the lower 900000 range, and that chambering continued throughout the entire Victory series sequence. The earliest of those pre-Victory .38 Specials went to the Defense Supply Corp (DSC). Some .38 Special revolvers in the high 900000 range are also known to have been shipped to the United States Maritime Commission (USMC).

Some references state that most Victories with SNs below V40000 were produced in .38 S&W, but certainly not all. I know of at least six Navy-marked revolvers in .38 Special having SNs of V40000 or less. That would imply there were a fair number of these early Navies made, but just how many are below V40000, I do not know. The detailed Victory data base may contain better information than I have.

 

[mkk41]

Many Colts and S&W Victory's were cut down to fit in later pilots & aircrew survival vests. There was a small sewed-in nylon holster in the large left front pocket. I've seen them in Navy armories and some were rather poorly done , and barrel lengths were 'more or less' 2in.

 

[DWalt]

Many Colts and S&W Victory's were cut down to fit in later pilots & aircrew survival vests. There was a small sewed-in nylon holster in the large left front pocket. I've seen them in Navy armories and some were rather poorly done , and barrel lengths were 'more or less' 2in.

Even so, those would have been "field modifications" (likely unauthorized) and could not be considered as being original.

 

[jw mathews]

Thanx to all above responders. My understanding, from reading Neal & Jinks's book covering S&W up to 1945, Jinks' history of S&W and the first edition of the Krause "Standard Catalog of S&W" had been that ALL V-series 1-40,000 were .38S&Ws for the Brits, and that 38 Special chambering began @ or above V40,000.

It is interesting to learn that some 38 Specials have serials LOWER than V40,000 and I'm guessing those would be rather rare. It seems to me that a "US Navy" topstrap mark would be rather difficult to fake and not very profitable considering the price of 38 Special Victories in the 1950s was $40 or less. Considering today's Victory price levels, has such faking been done? After all, weren't the only Victories w/o topstrap marks the 38S&Ws that were NOT lend-lease? Didn't all the 38 Specials have either military marks or a US gov't stamp of some sort?

I know that 38 S&W Victories were being rechambered to 38 Special for resale, but I expect those would have British proofs (required by UK law before export from that country), and the Special ctg would be a loose fit in the chamber because the S&W case is fatter.

My friend is quite knowledgeable and his revolver is definitely NOT a rechambered British 38S&W. I suggested during our July 28th phone conversation that he look into this forum & I hope he'll join. He has the equipment to take much better photos than I can and I'll ask him to see about maybe posting some pix of this revolver. From his description, its barrel is definitely cut down.

Unless the front portion of the barrel was damaged in some way, I don't know why a business would go to the trouble of chopping the barrel. (Altering the 38S&Ws to take 38 Specials makes more "sense" imo if a business is looking to sell some snubnose revolvers at a cheap price.) But maybe a 38 Special somehow slipped in with a group of 38S&Ws selected for chopping.

Otoh, if field modifications were done by US military armorers to shorten the Victories for easier carry by pilots et al, why would that automatically reduce "collectibility?" Wouldn't that be a legitimate category or sub-category for collectors? Granted, a shortened bbl may not be "original issue" but many guns fall into that general category over time and some are still highly collectible.

For example, weren't a number of Schofields shortened by (or for sale to) Wells Fargo? What about the 7-1/2" bbl standard Colt SAAs that were shortened to 5-1/2" for the Phillipine Campaign ca 1900?

 

[Muley Gil]

"Unless the front portion of the barrel was damaged in some way, I don't know why a business would go to the trouble of chopping the barrel."

Post WW II, when these alterations were done, "snubnosed" revolvers were becoming popular. Most had cheap looking, thin ramp front sights attached. The .38 S&W revolvers were rechambered due to the lack of available ammo and the overwhelming popularity of the .38 special cartridge.

 

[DWalt]

Not only were the pre-"Lend Lease" revolvers unmarked on the top strap, but also the DSC and USMC revolvers (and a few others). Navy-marked topstraps disappeared in the high-V260000 range. It would not be too difficult to take a DSC V-model revolver in .38 Special having a lower SN and stamp/engrave "U. S. Navy" on the topstrap. That alone would fool most people not fully knowledgeable about Navies. A factory letter is about the only reliable way to detect a fake.

Regarding "field modifications", the main problem would be in distinguishing a chopped barrel done in a military facility vs. being done in some basement machine shop. No such records of barrel cutting were kept by the military, as such modifications would have not have been authorized by regulations. After WWII, and through the 1960s, barrel chopping of surplus M&Ps was extremely common, because lots of buyers wanted their guns to look like those used by TV and movie cops and gangsters, and also for better concealability. Reaming .38 S&W chambers to .38 Special was another method to increase customer appeal, as .38 Special ammunition is both more powerful and more available than .38 S&W. Many were also nickel plated to enhance eye appeal. Lots of the British .38/200s are not marked in any way to indicate British ownership.

 

[gordonrick]

I saw four chopped and reamed victories in local shops this past weekend. Two nickel and two blue. What is crazy is that they are marked at prices you'd expect for a "real" snubby. I guess everybody wanted to be Joe Friday.

 

[DWalt]

I run across more butchered specimens than originals, and they usually have some colorful but ridiculous made-up tale attached to them.

 

[Skeetr57]

I think that some people must be a lot younger than me if they believe that .38 S&W ammunition wasn't readily available in the 50's and 60's. S&W had made hundreds of thousands of revolvers in that caliber of the top break design, and in fact continued to make the .38 hammerless until 1940 (or at least catalog it til then). The .38 RP was sold for long enough to get a model number, as was the .38/32 Terrier. When I was a kid, every hardware store that sold ammo had .38 S&W in stock as well as the gun shops. As for military shops cutting down barrels, I have no doubt that it was done. One of my uncles was an Ordnance Warrant Officer at a nearby training camp and told me of cutting down M1917 revolvers to make "banker's specials". I have no idea how prevalent it was or how many guns were converted that way. Almost any Army post and many ships had machine shops that would have the capability to cut barrels and reset sights. Control of weapons that had not been issued to an individual was not very tight until around 1970 or so.

 

[opoefc]

jw mathews, The source you cite for the info. that Victory Models, ser. # V1 to V40,000, all were .38 S&W caliber for the Brits, was written in 1966. Research since then has provided better info that refutes those serial number estimates. For example, V1 through V5 are all .38 Special, with 4 inch barrels. Navy stampings on Victory models is the most common faking done today. Thousands of cut barrel Victory Models were sold by Kleins , Hunter's Lodge, and many other gun dealers after WW2, so apparently the cost of that conversion was minimal for them. If your friend is that knowledgeable about Victory Models, then he knows his gun can only be authenticated by a factory letter. Does he have same yet? Ed.

 

[DWalt]

"if they believe that .38 S&W ammunition wasn't readily available in the 50's and 60's."

Of course it was available back then, just as it is today - just not as common as .38 Special. The very first revolver in .38 S&W I had (a S&W .38 DA 4th which I still own) was bought in the late 1960s, and I remember having a difficult time finding ammunition for it, as none of the few dealers in my town stocked any. One of them special-ordered me a box, and I reloaded those same cases for a long time afterwards.

 

[Greg10]

When I first posted questions about my Victory I was told the barrel was cut down because it is a 2". At the time, I hadn't realized that there were stampings on the bottom of the barrel. Since that's the case, do you all think it's a cut barrel? Also, it's stamped .38 "767". Is that 38 S&W or 38 Special?

 

[DWalt]

No question whatsoever the barrel has been cut. .767 is the length of the .38 S&W casing in inches, not .38 S&W Special. That stamping was applied when the British government sold off the revolver.

 

[gordonrick]

One of the few near certainties with S&W revolvers from the 1900's (there truly aren't many cases of that!) is that they all have the extractor rod locking lug on the bottom of the barrel. No locking lug = cut barrel.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. If you like it - shoot it and enjoy! It just isn't going to bring much as a "collectable" but it still has some history. Who knows where it might have traveled during the war?

I've been wanting a K-frame snubby for a while, but factory snubs seem to be scarce around here - even if I hadn't blown my gun budget months ago..

 

[Texas Star]

Is there any reason why a normal bbl. with the front lock can't be installed on these snubbed guns?

Of course, the barrel and the gunsmith fee might well be more than a .38 S &W- chambered gun that has been altered is worth. I guess you can still shoot .38 S&W ammo in them, but you'd probably lose some of the already low velocity in the lengthened chambers.

 

[DWalt]

If you could find a barrel. Also, a shorter ejection rod would be required. And when you are finished, you will still have a converted .38/200 with no finish. It's not worth the cost of performing.

About the only justification would be as a do-it-yourself educational project.