I just bought a Smith serial # 508xx with 6.5 inch barrel. Has round butt frame, target rear sights, barrel marked 38 S&W special.Top of barrel has patent dates on it.4 screws. If someone could post pics for me that would be great. Mike
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OP
I just bought a Smith serial # 508xx with 6.5 inch barrel. Has round butt frame, target rear sights, barrel marked 38 S&W special.Top of barrel has patent dates on it.4 screws. If someone could post pics for me that would be great. Mike
geoff40
Member
The book with serial numbers isn't in front of me, but I am guessing you have found a model of 1902, target gun, not sure which version. It would be a black powder era .38 special, and the 5th screw did not come along until the (I think) model of 1905. You have a pre 5 screw 4 screw gun. I am told they can still be shot, but only with the lightest of the .38 special loads.
Mike P. will be along, he is about the best mind for this on this forum I think. Post some pics for us!
Mike P. will be along, he is about the best mind for this on this forum I think. Post some pics for us!
OP
Can someone post for me? I'll e-mail them the pics. Mike
Mike
Here are the pictures. The gun is a 1902 1st change - notice the shoulder on the barrel.
Whats with the grips ?!
Later, Mike Priwer
Here are the pictures. The gun is a 1902 1st change - notice the shoulder on the barrel.
Whats with the grips ?!
Later, Mike Priwer
cgt4570
Member
Very nice!
OP
Thank you Mike for posting the pics. I got it for $300. OK?
And what grips would go with this gun? Thanks,Mike
And what grips would go with this gun? Thanks,Mike
Yes - that is a very good price. Grips should look like this, in wood,
or in black hard rubber . Wood is much harder to find than the hard black
rubber.
Later, Mike Priwer
or in black hard rubber . Wood is much harder to find than the hard black
rubber.
Later, Mike Priwer
OP
Much thanks
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Mike
Every time I see one your four inch targets;I am reminded of what I really,really like.
Wayne Byram
Every time I see one your four inch targets;I am reminded of what I really,really like.
Wayne Byram
ladder13:
Congratulations. That is the first time I have seen Mike tell someone they got a gun for a good price.
Ed
Congratulations. That is the first time I have seen Mike tell someone they got a gun for a good price.
Ed
bmcgilvray
Member
Thanks for the great photos Mike! The short shoulder gives a nice graceful appearance to the revolver.
azmick
Member
i see the roll mark on the left side of the barrel is not centered on the barrel, is the right side roll mark centered? could this revolver have been shipped with extension grips? or were that type grips limited to the 32 HE guns in this time period? and just a couple comments, there are almost no marks on the hammer or trigger were they rubbed on the frame, something my newer S&Ws do and it bugs the dickens out of me, and the case color has faded {that tells me it has not sat in a drawer} but the condition is pretty good for a 100+ year old pistol that was made for only about a single year and it's a target model at that. 300 bucks, yup, i would have paid that, even sans grips
Ed
It is a good price, for a number of reasons. One, its a target. Two, its a
scarce target ; there were only maybe 25,000 1902 1st change guns made, and
there are probably less than 200 survivors in target. Three, its in good
condition, generally speaking. The blue looks peculiar in the pictures, but
that may be the lighting.
There were over 900,000 1905's made, and then another 800,000 Victories.
With those numbers, the guns are not scarce, and that is an understatement.
So, most are priced way too high.
Azmick
Those roll marking, on the left side of the barrel, are exactly correct.
They are right where they ought to be. These K-frames had no extension stocks ;
those were only for I-frames. I will tell you, however, that I have a pair of
extension stocks for a K-frame. They look exactly like those for I-frames,
but are just a bit larger overall. I don't know who made them, and no one else
does either !
These hammers on these 1899's and 1902's do not rub on the frame cutout.
I'd have to check ( and I don't have my guns with me now ), but I think there
is a built-up bushing on the side plate and frame, to keep the hammer centered.
Whatever it is, it keeps the hammer centered.
Later, Mike Priwer
It is a good price, for a number of reasons. One, its a target. Two, its a
scarce target ; there were only maybe 25,000 1902 1st change guns made, and
there are probably less than 200 survivors in target. Three, its in good
condition, generally speaking. The blue looks peculiar in the pictures, but
that may be the lighting.
There were over 900,000 1905's made, and then another 800,000 Victories.
With those numbers, the guns are not scarce, and that is an understatement.
So, most are priced way too high.
Azmick
Those roll marking, on the left side of the barrel, are exactly correct.
They are right where they ought to be. These K-frames had no extension stocks ;
those were only for I-frames. I will tell you, however, that I have a pair of
extension stocks for a K-frame. They look exactly like those for I-frames,
but are just a bit larger overall. I don't know who made them, and no one else
does either !
These hammers on these 1899's and 1902's do not rub on the frame cutout.
I'd have to check ( and I don't have my guns with me now ), but I think there
is a built-up bushing on the side plate and frame, to keep the hammer centered.
Whatever it is, it keeps the hammer centered.
Later, Mike Priwer
OP
Thanks Mike P, I've sent a couple more pics in natural light. The blueing appears original though well-worn. No blue on the grip frame whatsoever, and alot of holster wear. Definitely carried by someone, though not abused at all. Wish I had the original grips. This one is getting lettered, in any event, to see what grips it shipped with.
How many 6.5 inch targets remain? Anyone have a guess? I couln't stand to take pictures with recent rb magna's on it.
Mike
How many 6.5 inch targets remain? Anyone have a guess? I couln't stand to take pictures with recent rb magna's on it.
Mike
Mike, Ed, and others
As to how many 6.5" targets were done, and why $300 is a good price, etc :
There never were any records kept about how many , of any revolver, the factory built.
All there is is the shipping records, and the invoices. The shipping records are
bound books that were pre-printed with serial numbers; as the guns were shipped, the
appropriate entry was completed with the shipping date and destination. The invoice
books are ordered by date - as the bills were sent out. So, the lettering procedure
involves locating the serial number in the shipping records, then going to the invoices
on that date for further information.
The factory followed two different approaches when it came to making the guns. They
would always come up with, or make, whatever was ordered. And, they tried to anticipate
what would be ordered, just like any business today. From all that I've read, and have
been told, the pre-WW2 mix was approximately 10% targets, and 90% service-sighted guns.
They were not making guns for collectors - it was just a business, and their biggest
customers were the military and police organizations. That is why the K-frames are
named M & P's . They paid a lot of attention to target shooters and competitive
shooters, but the bread & butter business was the military and police guns.
This 10% approximation number is just an approximation, and it comes from the pre-WW2
years - namely about 1900 to 1940 . Clearly, most of the K-frames are 1905's, from
serial number 62,000 to 1,000,000 . And this includes the later K-22's and the few
K-32's, both of which were target guns - excpet for a few Coast Guard K-22's .
The time-frame that is the most difficult to deal with is the very first K-frames -
the 1899's and the two 1902 models. There was no history of production, when these
guns were first produced. The 1899's ran for only 3 yesrs, and both 1902's for another
3 years. Only 62,000 guns total were produced over those 6 years.
It's not clear as to the production planning for targets vs service sights during those first
6 years. Its doubtful that they estimated 10%, for example, although there is no proof
of that. The guns were shipped very much out of date order. Its common to find adjacent
serial numbers shipped nearly a year apart. That would suggest that the targets were
made up in batches, of maybe 50 or 100 guns, and then sat on the shelves until orders
came in.
The 1899's and the 1902's were offered in three standard barrel lengths: 4", 5", and
6.5" . Six inch guns were considered special orders. This is an important point, because
if a gun was one of the standard barrel lengths, then the records frequently reflect
just that - a standard gun. They frequently do not specify the barrel length -because it
was standard.
( A similar issue occurs later with the K-22's. The Call bead sight was
considered standard, so the records do not state what type of front sight was on a
standard gun. Earlier Call sights were gold - later ones were silver, but at their time,
each one was standard. )
There is no way to know how many 6.5" targets were made in the 1902 line. Or in the 1899
line. One could devote the time and energy to go through the invoices - but if the records
only indicate it is a standard gun, then that is the end of the story ! This is one of
the reasons why it is so important to examine these guns very carefully , to ascertain
if the parts are original. Barrels can be replaced - and they might even be re-serial
numbered to the gun. The stamped serial numbers under the barrel have to be examined
carefully, to see if it looks like the original stamping.
The best indicator of 1899 & 1902 target production is the number of guns that change
hands. Of course, we have to be made aware of these transactions. Public auctions, and
postings on sites like this, provide a glimpse of that information. It is only a glimpse,
because not all guns trade. Some stay locked up forever, or just exchange ownership
privately.
There is one last point, and that is that its not only the production numbers that are
important, but also there is the issue of survivorship. Clearly, not all of the 1899's
and 1902's that were produced, have survived. We need to make an estimate of the fraction
of production that survives. As an example, and this is only an example, if we assume
that 10% of the 1899 & 1902 production were targets, and if we assume that 20% of those
survived, then we multiply those two numbers together, and get 2% ( 10% of 20% ). From
the 62,000 guns that were produced, we would expect there to be 1240 survivors.
1240. That is a lot of 1899 and 1902 targets . A lot more than I have ever observed,
in all the auctions and postings that I have seen. Personally, I don't think there are
more than 300 to 400 1899 & 1902 targets surviving today. But - the point is that
this kind of methodology provides a framework for thinking about how many survivors
there might actually be, given that we will never know the real numbers.
And so now - the hardest question of all - what are these surviving guns worth ? If
collectors are happy paying $200 for a shooter-grade 1905, with a production of something
like 800,000 guns, $300 for a 1902 target sounds like a steal, to me !
Later, Mike Priwer
As to how many 6.5" targets were done, and why $300 is a good price, etc :
There never were any records kept about how many , of any revolver, the factory built.
All there is is the shipping records, and the invoices. The shipping records are
bound books that were pre-printed with serial numbers; as the guns were shipped, the
appropriate entry was completed with the shipping date and destination. The invoice
books are ordered by date - as the bills were sent out. So, the lettering procedure
involves locating the serial number in the shipping records, then going to the invoices
on that date for further information.
The factory followed two different approaches when it came to making the guns. They
would always come up with, or make, whatever was ordered. And, they tried to anticipate
what would be ordered, just like any business today. From all that I've read, and have
been told, the pre-WW2 mix was approximately 10% targets, and 90% service-sighted guns.
They were not making guns for collectors - it was just a business, and their biggest
customers were the military and police organizations. That is why the K-frames are
named M & P's . They paid a lot of attention to target shooters and competitive
shooters, but the bread & butter business was the military and police guns.
This 10% approximation number is just an approximation, and it comes from the pre-WW2
years - namely about 1900 to 1940 . Clearly, most of the K-frames are 1905's, from
serial number 62,000 to 1,000,000 . And this includes the later K-22's and the few
K-32's, both of which were target guns - excpet for a few Coast Guard K-22's .
The time-frame that is the most difficult to deal with is the very first K-frames -
the 1899's and the two 1902 models. There was no history of production, when these
guns were first produced. The 1899's ran for only 3 yesrs, and both 1902's for another
3 years. Only 62,000 guns total were produced over those 6 years.
It's not clear as to the production planning for targets vs service sights during those first
6 years. Its doubtful that they estimated 10%, for example, although there is no proof
of that. The guns were shipped very much out of date order. Its common to find adjacent
serial numbers shipped nearly a year apart. That would suggest that the targets were
made up in batches, of maybe 50 or 100 guns, and then sat on the shelves until orders
came in.
The 1899's and the 1902's were offered in three standard barrel lengths: 4", 5", and
6.5" . Six inch guns were considered special orders. This is an important point, because
if a gun was one of the standard barrel lengths, then the records frequently reflect
just that - a standard gun. They frequently do not specify the barrel length -because it
was standard.
( A similar issue occurs later with the K-22's. The Call bead sight was
considered standard, so the records do not state what type of front sight was on a
standard gun. Earlier Call sights were gold - later ones were silver, but at their time,
each one was standard. )
There is no way to know how many 6.5" targets were made in the 1902 line. Or in the 1899
line. One could devote the time and energy to go through the invoices - but if the records
only indicate it is a standard gun, then that is the end of the story ! This is one of
the reasons why it is so important to examine these guns very carefully , to ascertain
if the parts are original. Barrels can be replaced - and they might even be re-serial
numbered to the gun. The stamped serial numbers under the barrel have to be examined
carefully, to see if it looks like the original stamping.
The best indicator of 1899 & 1902 target production is the number of guns that change
hands. Of course, we have to be made aware of these transactions. Public auctions, and
postings on sites like this, provide a glimpse of that information. It is only a glimpse,
because not all guns trade. Some stay locked up forever, or just exchange ownership
privately.
There is one last point, and that is that its not only the production numbers that are
important, but also there is the issue of survivorship. Clearly, not all of the 1899's
and 1902's that were produced, have survived. We need to make an estimate of the fraction
of production that survives. As an example, and this is only an example, if we assume
that 10% of the 1899 & 1902 production were targets, and if we assume that 20% of those
survived, then we multiply those two numbers together, and get 2% ( 10% of 20% ). From
the 62,000 guns that were produced, we would expect there to be 1240 survivors.
1240. That is a lot of 1899 and 1902 targets . A lot more than I have ever observed,
in all the auctions and postings that I have seen. Personally, I don't think there are
more than 300 to 400 1899 & 1902 targets surviving today. But - the point is that
this kind of methodology provides a framework for thinking about how many survivors
there might actually be, given that we will never know the real numbers.
And so now - the hardest question of all - what are these surviving guns worth ? If
collectors are happy paying $200 for a shooter-grade 1905, with a production of something
like 800,000 guns, $300 for a 1902 target sounds like a steal, to me !
Later, Mike Priwer
Mike:
Hard to argue with your logic.
I seem to remember someone on this forum keeping a log of those earliest M&Ps but can't remember who it is. With Joe Miller's files on target versions, it would be interesting to pair those numbers with the M&P numbers to see how close the target numbers are to 10%.
Ed
Hard to argue with your logic.
I seem to remember someone on this forum keeping a log of those earliest M&Ps but can't remember who it is. With Joe Miller's files on target versions, it would be interesting to pair those numbers with the M&P numbers to see how close the target numbers are to 10%.
Ed
Ed
Its not an apples to apples comparison. Joe only has target survivors,
but no M&P survivor numbers. So, it would be comparing target survivors
to M&P production.
What comes out of Joes data is the very very few 1899 targets. Worse,
I owned most of those at one time, and reported those to Joe.
The survival data does not support a 10% assumption, but that is what I
have been told. To me, judging by what shows up at the big-name auction
houses, I doubt there is more than 150 1899 targets in collectors hands.
And even that is probably too high - maybe its more like 100.
Later, Mike
Its not an apples to apples comparison. Joe only has target survivors,
but no M&P survivor numbers. So, it would be comparing target survivors
to M&P production.
What comes out of Joes data is the very very few 1899 targets. Worse,
I owned most of those at one time, and reported those to Joe.
The survival data does not support a 10% assumption, but that is what I
have been told. To me, judging by what shows up at the big-name auction
houses, I doubt there is more than 150 1899 targets in collectors hands.
And even that is probably too high - maybe its more like 100.
Later, Mike
Bullseye Smith
Member
Hey Mike,
If that is so with the 38, then the 32-20 that only had 5,311 made in 1899 would make it less than 100 in collector hands.
Later John
If that is so with the 38, then the 32-20 that only had 5,311 made in 1899 would make it less than 100 in collector hands.
Later John
John
I would agree with that 100%.
Its curious how numbers work out. At the peak of my collection, I owned
12 1899 targets, and 12 1902 targets - 4 early ones, and 8 1ST changes. These
were all in .38 caliber. In 32/20, I owned 3 1899's and only 1 1902 , and that
was all that I ever saw offered for sale, over a 20 year period.
There were about 21000 .38s, and as you point out, about 5300 in 32/20 caliber.
That is a ratio of about 4 to one - roughly, and that is exactly the ratio
of what I owned ! This for the model of 1899.
As luck would have it, among the 12 1899 .38's , I had 5 different barrel lengths
in blue, and 4 in nickel. That is almost the perfect collection. The 32/20's I
had were one 5", and two 6 1/2", with probably 90% finish collectively among
all of them ! So, I sold off the extra .38 6.5" guns, as they really were extras.
I sold all the 32/20's ( serial 741,747, 3177, and 6406 ), figuring that I never
would find any other barrel lengths. Since then, that is exactly what has happened !
I doubt there was even 100 1899 32/20 targets made. The gun was intended as a
companion gun to the rifle, and presumably for that purpose, would have been
carried in a holster, or from what mine looked like, rattling around in the back
of a pickup truck ! Either way, target sights would have been a hinderance.
And, 32/20 was not a favored shooting-competition caliber, particularly in the
1899 to 1905 era.
Lee Jarrett had 3197 for sale for what seemed like several months. It's (another)
5", and from his description, had little to no finish left. A perfect companion
to mine !
Given all of this, I guess the last question is : Are 1899 32/20 targets
rare, or just scarce ? I have my own views about this, which are reinforced by
the time (not all that long) it took for Lee's gun to sell. I once saw a pair
of Ideal shoulder stock adapter plates for sale ( they go under the grips ) on
a gun, and they were described as rare. Ray Brazille commmented that the only
thing rarer than Ideal stock plates was a collector who was interested !
By the way, how long have you had your 32/20 1899 target ? It looks like 5" ?
Later, Mike Priwer
I would agree with that 100%.
Its curious how numbers work out. At the peak of my collection, I owned
12 1899 targets, and 12 1902 targets - 4 early ones, and 8 1ST changes. These
were all in .38 caliber. In 32/20, I owned 3 1899's and only 1 1902 , and that
was all that I ever saw offered for sale, over a 20 year period.
There were about 21000 .38s, and as you point out, about 5300 in 32/20 caliber.
That is a ratio of about 4 to one - roughly, and that is exactly the ratio
of what I owned ! This for the model of 1899.
As luck would have it, among the 12 1899 .38's , I had 5 different barrel lengths
in blue, and 4 in nickel. That is almost the perfect collection. The 32/20's I
had were one 5", and two 6 1/2", with probably 90% finish collectively among
all of them ! So, I sold off the extra .38 6.5" guns, as they really were extras.
I sold all the 32/20's ( serial 741,747, 3177, and 6406 ), figuring that I never
would find any other barrel lengths. Since then, that is exactly what has happened !
I doubt there was even 100 1899 32/20 targets made. The gun was intended as a
companion gun to the rifle, and presumably for that purpose, would have been
carried in a holster, or from what mine looked like, rattling around in the back
of a pickup truck ! Either way, target sights would have been a hinderance.
And, 32/20 was not a favored shooting-competition caliber, particularly in the
1899 to 1905 era.
Lee Jarrett had 3197 for sale for what seemed like several months. It's (another)
5", and from his description, had little to no finish left. A perfect companion
to mine !
Given all of this, I guess the last question is : Are 1899 32/20 targets
rare, or just scarce ? I have my own views about this, which are reinforced by
the time (not all that long) it took for Lee's gun to sell. I once saw a pair
of Ideal shoulder stock adapter plates for sale ( they go under the grips ) on
a gun, and they were described as rare. Ray Brazille commmented that the only
thing rarer than Ideal stock plates was a collector who was interested !
By the way, how long have you had your 32/20 1899 target ? It looks like 5" ?
Later, Mike Priwer
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