Older Reloading Manuals - Safe or not?
- Thread starter PDL
- Start date
dennis40x
US Veteran
Dennis,
Thanks for adding so very thoughtful and educational points to the discussion. Some of us want some useful information. It might be old stuff to you. So what, stay out of the discussion if you're bothered by it. The rest of us haven't been as well educated on the subject as you.
Thanks for adding so very thoughtful and educational points to the discussion. Some of us want some useful information. It might be old stuff to you. So what, stay out of the discussion if you're bothered by it. The rest of us haven't been as well educated on the subject as you.
dennis40x
US Veteran
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- Feb 9, 2006
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Yes, but are the .38 Special +P loads in the Speer #13 safe to use in my 1953 vintage Outdoorsman? It isn't model numbered.
Whip that nag's carcass, but if somebody learns something we should all go home happy.
Whip that nag's carcass, but if somebody learns something we should all go home happy.
bmcgilvray
Member
They're bound to be safe. I'm still using them.
Treeman is a fairly intelligent fellow and makes some great observations.
"Just like the concept of canister powders is supposed to work."
"Are there loads in some of the older manuals that I think are excessive? Yes-a few. Are there some more recent data sources so divorced from reality that I consider them useless? Yes."
Treeman is a fairly intelligent fellow and makes some great observations.
"Just like the concept of canister powders is supposed to work."
"Are there loads in some of the older manuals that I think are excessive? Yes-a few. Are there some more recent data sources so divorced from reality that I consider them useless? Yes."
Paul5388
US Veteran
BI, that's "before internet", we did quite a few things that would raise eyebrows on the uber enlightened of today. Somehow, we managed to survive and still enjoy all of our faculties and extremities. Sometimes our data was lacking, so we had to make do with what we had, so we even interpolated data. That was necessary due to only having a Speer #7, but we were using Hornady bullets, i.e. 139 gr in 7mm. As luck would have it, we also didn't have CCI 250 primers, but we made do with what we had. The load we've been using for at least 43 years in 7mm Mag is 68.0 gr of IMR 4350 with a 139 gr bullet and Rem 9 1/2 primers. It clocks 3190 fps MV with new powder or old powder (and yes they're different, since around 1980*), but we used the same charge weights.
According to the Lyman 49th Edition, Speer #7 is 2.0 gr over max, but the same old 1964 M700 continues to shoot that load and will still group less than 1" at 100 yards.
There are several reasons this scenario worked. The primer is a non-magnum, so it doesn't generate as much pressure as it would using a magnum primer. Weighed charges don't change with canister powders, even if the powder has changed. I'm still using brass that was bought around 1970, which doesn't happen with over loads.
That's a new factory R-P compared to one of the $.1725 Normas.
There isn't anything wrong with old data, if you use your head for something besides a hat rack.
* IMR moved its production facilities to Canada in the early 1980s. The DuPont powders produced in the USA were larger tubes of extruded powder, whereas the Canadian produced powder is more like the short cut (SC) varieties. If volumetric charging was done, there would have been a gross overload, since the SC powder takes up less volume per weight. Regardless, the burn rate stayed the same and produced the same results.
According to the Lyman 49th Edition, Speer #7 is 2.0 gr over max, but the same old 1964 M700 continues to shoot that load and will still group less than 1" at 100 yards.
There are several reasons this scenario worked. The primer is a non-magnum, so it doesn't generate as much pressure as it would using a magnum primer. Weighed charges don't change with canister powders, even if the powder has changed. I'm still using brass that was bought around 1970, which doesn't happen with over loads.
That's a new factory R-P compared to one of the $.1725 Normas.
There isn't anything wrong with old data, if you use your head for something besides a hat rack.
* IMR moved its production facilities to Canada in the early 1980s. The DuPont powders produced in the USA were larger tubes of extruded powder, whereas the Canadian produced powder is more like the short cut (SC) varieties. If volumetric charging was done, there would have been a gross overload, since the SC powder takes up less volume per weight. Regardless, the burn rate stayed the same and produced the same results.
JakeB
Member
Question about older Speer manuals
I have a copy of the Speer #11 manual. It doesn't list C.O.L. for any of the loads.
Were they using SAAMI max cartridge length for the loads that did not have a footnote or were they loading to the cannelure/crimp?
I have a copy of the Speer #11 manual. It doesn't list C.O.L. for any of the loads.
Were they using SAAMI max cartridge length for the loads that did not have a footnote or were they loading to the cannelure/crimp?
Me thinks you're way too serious. I'm not high jacking your thread/subject. The search function should or would have provided a wealth of information on this subject. On the other hand just about every subject on the forum is the rehash of the same old same old to a certain existent.
I guess you're right, I take anything to do with firearms seriously. And if the information has been provided many times before, again so what. Search functions are only as good as the indexer or search engine developer.
It seems you were the only one that mentioned a problem with a re-hash of the subject.
38-44HD45
Absent Comrade
Hmmm. It seems I get to add to my "ignore" list.
Lighten up a bit. I'm sure Dennis doesn't see a problem with rehashing anything. Especially a good topic like this one
Yes but how do you explain the mushroom cloud over Lake Leon or the fact that you are now sporting a long tail like a monkey, extra body parts and now glow in the dark
That feature works great, just don't add all of us to the list
I had so many on it once I thought the forum only had three or four members, so I had to take everyone off of the ignore list and start over
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Skip Sackett
US Veteran
Lighten up on the "Old Man!"
Dennis is OK, take it easy on him. He comes across harsh, sarcastic and mean at times BUT, that's just how he is! I'm just kidding Dennis!
When some of us went AWOL he is one of the ones that sent word that folks were missed, like Sargent Preston and myself.
He just comes at having ammo from a different perspective. We, some of us anyway, are re-loaders, that's him. "Give me ammo for my gun for a certain purpose and I'm happy."
That would never work for some of us though, myself included, we say: "Give me a round that fits in this firearm that is different than the last one I shot in it." Nothing wrong with either as long as we all stay cool about it.
One thing to remember about Dennis, he is a retired engineer and I don't mean the kind that pulls on an air horn chord!
Dennis is OK, take it easy on him. He comes across harsh, sarcastic and mean at times BUT, that's just how he is! I'm just kidding Dennis!
When some of us went AWOL he is one of the ones that sent word that folks were missed, like Sargent Preston and myself.
He just comes at having ammo from a different perspective. We, some of us anyway, are re-loaders, that's him. "Give me ammo for my gun for a certain purpose and I'm happy."
That would never work for some of us though, myself included, we say: "Give me a round that fits in this firearm that is different than the last one I shot in it." Nothing wrong with either as long as we all stay cool about it.
One thing to remember about Dennis, he is a retired engineer and I don't mean the kind that pulls on an air horn chord!
Ok, I never meant for anything to get 'too' negative. But I guess I took the first post of his as an attack - It sure came across that way anyway.
Main thing is info exchanged useful when possible regardless of how many times someone asks the same question.
Main thing is info exchanged useful when possible regardless of how many times someone asks the same question.
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
No problemo, compadre!
PDL,
No harm no foul, friend! If anyone was attacking anyone, it was Dennis on me. We have been through it so many times now that it's like water off of a duck's back both ways. Now, there was a time when................
It's all good now!
p.s. I'm with you on the older manuals by the way, I just have to KNOW!
PDL,
No harm no foul, friend! If anyone was attacking anyone, it was Dennis on me. We have been through it so many times now that it's like water off of a duck's back both ways. Now, there was a time when................
It's all good now!
p.s. I'm with you on the older manuals by the way, I just have to KNOW!
Paul5388
US Veteran
Skip,
I updated those images you sent me from Speer #5, 6 and 7.
I updated those images you sent me from Speer #5, 6 and 7.
bmcgilvray
Member
"Yes but how do you explain the mushroom cloud over Lake Leon or the fact that you are now sporting a long tail like a monkey, extra body parts and now glow in the dark."
Heh Jessie, there's nothing at all that can't be explained on pp 366-367 of the Speer No. 8.
Heh Jessie, there's nothing at all that can't be explained on pp 366-367 of the Speer No. 8.
That is true, and both of us still use that data anyway
I believe I have told the story about one of our friends in NC who went outside one night and saw a shooting star in the northwest. He said his first thought was "MY God Skip has finally blown himself up".
Hoptob
Member
Welcome to the club, PDL. Many of us made this mistake before. We got over it. Dennis got over it too. Now it's your turn.
Cheers,
Mike
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
That is true, and both of us still use that data anyway
I believe I have told the story about one of our friends in NC who went outside one night and saw a shooting star in the northwest. He said his first thought was "MY God Skip has finally blown himself up".
A while ago I got a Puma '92 in 45Colt. Guess what powder I christened it with! SR4756!
ROFL!
38-44HD45
Absent Comrade
Lighten up a bit. I'm sure Dennis doesn't see a problem with rehashing anything. Especially a good topic like this one
Yes but how do you explain the mushroom cloud over Lake Leon or the fact that you are now sporting a long tail like a monkey, extra body parts and now glow in the dark
That feature works great, just don't add all of us to the list
I had so many on it once I thought the forum only had three or four members, so I had to take everyone off of the ignore list and start over
Jessie, my friend, I'd not think of ignoring you! By the way, how's your backlog? I'm looking at my supplies, and I may need some .358" and .430" Keith-shaped pills to go over massive quantities of SR-4756 in Speer #8 weights within the next couple of months.
I wouldn't ignore you either. Matter of fact if I see that you have posted in a thread I read it no matter what the subject is. So that's as far away from ignoring as it gets
On the bullets you mentioned there is no backlog, as long as you call before someone else sees this
Just teasing ya' I'll hold some for you
38-44HD45
Absent Comrade
Thanks, Jessie! I appreciate the compliment. I need to look at my supplies more closely to be sure what I need. I'll be back with you in a few days.
Sorry about the thread drift. Here: Old data rules!!
Sorry about the thread drift. Here: Old data rules!!
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
Same with me!
If I see that you have posted in a thread, I am like Jessie, I'm gonna read it even if it's about a subject I care nothing about! You rock, John!
The reason I check them out is I need training on how to
If I see that you have posted in a thread, I am like Jessie, I'm gonna read it even if it's about a subject I care nothing about! You rock, John!
The reason I check them out is I need training on how to
JakeB
Member
CRICKETS CHIRPING....
38-44HD45
Absent Comrade
Sorry, Jake. Didn't mean to ignore you, but I don't know for sure. I have a Speer #11, and I've loaded from it, but I've never paid much attention to C.O.L. numbers except in very specific circumstances, usually with reference to auto-pistol rounds that need to be short enough to fit in the magazine and the right length to feed reliably. If the bullet has a cannelure, I think it's usually safe to assume that it was loaded to the cannelure. For non-cannelured rifle rounds, I've usually used a round of factory ammo with a similar bullet contour/ogive to set up the seater die. What caliber are you working with?
38-44HD45
Absent Comrade
Skip, I'm hurt. I've never intentionally yanked any chains. Well, at least not many...If I see that you have posted in a thread, I am like Jessie, I'm gonna read it even if it's about a subject I care nothing about! You rock, John!
The reason I check them out is I need training on how to
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
Oh, please, don't be hurt. I meant it as one of the sincerest compliments. Like learning from a professional!
