Once Again, Killing Thieves has Consequences

[Biggfoot44]

Fleeing subjects can only use deadly force if said fleeing subject is at imeadate risk of causing Death or Serious Bodily Injury .

This was specifically a Law Enforcement Officer , but when an otherwise Private Citizen is pursuing a criminal to apprehend them , they are engaging in a Citizen's Arrest* .

 

[RCL-09]

Fleeing subjects can only use deadly force if said fleeing subject is at imeadate risk of causing Death or Serious Bodily Injury .

This was specifically a Law Enforcement Officer , but when an otherwise Private Citizen is pursuing a criminal to apprehend them , they are engaging in a Citizen's Arrest* .

Can you please cite any precedent or cases that make it applicable to civilians?

 

[Doug M.]

As I pointed out earlier, Garner is a 4th amendment civil rights case. It is not directly applicable to criminal law, and only applies to a government agent (LE) making a seizure. Some or many states amended their criminal law to match, but a state could still have a law that allowed shooting a fleeing felon and the only consequence for LE would be a civil rights/damages claim. A state need not have amended the law with regard to a private citizen's use of force, either.

Looking back, it is highly probable that Justice O'Connor's dissent was right. One can probably draw a straight line from that opinion to the current culture of non-compliance. As for data, a LOT of agencies are pressured to categorize crimes as much less serious than they really are. I would give more credence to victimization studies.

 

[Miami_JBT]

How does Tenn. v Garner apply in this case?

It doesn't, the person involved isn't a cop.

 

[Miami_JBT]

As I pointed out earlier, Garner is a 4th amendment civil rights case. It is not directly applicable to criminal law, and only applies to a government agent (LE) making a seizure. Some or many states amended their criminal law to match, but a state could still have a law that allowed shooting a fleeing felon and the only consequence for LE would be a civil rights/damages claim. A state need not have amended the law with regard to a private citizen's use of force, either.

Looking back, it is highly probable that Justice O'Connor's dissent was right. One can probably draw a straight line from that opinion to the current culture of non-compliance. As for data, a LOT of agencies are pressured to categorize crimes as much less serious than they really are. I would give more credence to victimization studies.

Under Reporting crimes us as old as time itself.

Strong Arm Robbery becomes Theft By Sudden Snatching.

Aggravated Batter becomes Battery.

Burglary becomes Trespassing.

Gramd Theft becomes Petty Theft.



The pendulum is swinging back towards a "softer, gentler police force" and because of that, crime is climb.

I can't wait to see the next batch of "Blazer Experiments" done and agencies and city officials discover that battery on LEOs go up.

 

[fatcat3]

While I may agree with your sentiment about thieves, I have issues with what you say about the "system". Yes, it is broken - but it's our fault.

It used to be we locked up a lot more thieves and petty crooks, but then the system got saturated because nothing we were doing was enough of a deterrent. We as voters and taxpayers didn't want to fund a criminal justice system that was robust enough - or LARGE enough - to mete out the punishments we all thought were so well-deserved so something had to give. Hence the reason why some places won't even press charges below a certain dollar amount, or the punishment the thieves do get is so nominal as to be easily ignored by the perpetrator.

If we want to be tough on crime then we are going to have to PAY to be tough on crime. Or as they say in latin "Quid enim vos adepto redde" - you get what you pay for.

Having been a guard Ops "correctional officer" for the last 25 years at a maximum security prison Ops " correctional facility" dealing with the worst inmates Ops "residents" that this state has, what you say has some merit. However there is a huge dose of psyco " we can fix em" hug a thug B.S. sweeping the country. I have even listened to these over educated idiots call to the criminals "victims of society".

 

[Muss Muggins]

We can’t lock every criminal up forever. They’re gonna get released. So we need to prepare for it. Sadly, your attitude towards corrections may be perpetuating the cycle . . .

Just to clarify, you posted this, right?

This is the trouble with law enforcement. the us vs them attitude. I even see it with in dept. special operations group vs line officer, etc. It twists my tail to hear one of my fellow officers refer to someone in the public a "civilian". A good many people do support their local police, maybe its time for the police to support the local people. We don't look at each and every leo as potential a racist want to be killer, maybe leos shouldn't look at each and every one of the public as a potential felon.
God Bless . . .

Having been a guard Ops "correctional officer" for the last 25 years at a maximum security prison Ops " correctional facility" dealing with the worst inmates Ops "residents" that this state has, what you say has some merit. However there is a huge dose of psyco " we can fix em" hug a thug B.S. sweeping the country. I have even listened to these over educated idiots call to the criminals "victims of society".

 

[biku324]

I just checked...Delon is still in jail.

 

[Doug M.]

There needs to be more effort at corrective action with those who can be directed toward productivity. There also needs to be an understanding that there are some pretty awful folks who need to be warehoused until they are not dangerous. What I see now is so too much focus on the first group, without understanding that some of them belong in the second, and without near enough concern for the victims.

 

[fatcat3]

We can’t lock every criminal up forever. They’re gonna get released. So we need to prepare for it. Sadly, your attitude towards corrections may be perpetuating the cycle . . .

Just to clarify, you posted this, right?

Why yes I did! I am a bit confused with your drawing a parallel between a law abiding citizen going about his/her business, and a convicted felon serving time in a maximum security prison.

Good bye and God Bless.

 

[fatcat3]

There needs to be more effort at corrective action with those who can be directed toward productivity. There also needs to be an understanding that there are some pretty awful folks who need to be warehoused until they are not dangerous. What I see now is so too much focus on the first group, without understanding that some of them belong in the second, and without near enough concern for the victims.

AMEN BROTHER!

 

[Muss Muggins]

I'm sure you are . . .

. . . I am a bit confused with your drawing a parallel between a law abiding citizen going about his/her business, and a convicted felon serving time in a maximum security prison.

 

[Llance]

I do not consider myself to be an over educated "idiot", but i do believe some of these are indeed victims of our society. They are the ones who through no fault of their own were not taught at a young age that actions have reactions. Such as, sass your mother get your butt warmed up. Slap your sister or brother, get your butt warmed up. Steal something from the local drugstore, grocery, street vender, get your butt warmed up, by them and again when you get home. Sass the teacher, get your butt warmed up and again when you get home. Consequences make sure that you understand that wrong actions lead to the might of strength. It's how many generations grew up to lead productive lives without spending time in the gray bar hotel.

And yet some of these people do belong behind bars for the rest of their lives. or need to have their lives ended by society because they are so violent they can not live in any part of our society not even the society bordered in high walls and cell blocks.

 

[Doug M.]

I use the term "criminally feral" for a couple of reasons. The first is that it generally reflects the reality that some folks were just never raised right. In crude terms, making a decent productive human out of them is like trying to make a house pet out of a 3 year old barn cat. It can be done, but there is a lot to overcome.
The other is that too many otherwise valid terms have come for various reasons to be associated with racial/ethnic bias. While I do not think of them way, too many do and it messes up the discourse about violent criminal conduct. Since that discourse is already baggage laden, leading to stupid commentary, I want to keep it on point.

 

[Protocall_Design]

It's not about color, it's about behavior, to me anyway. Others think differently.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

He’s innocent until proven guilty in this country last time I checked, and it’s my hope we still believe that. Most don’t unfortunately, including several who have posted here. Every once in a while I used to get into lively discussions with various attorneys about facts akin to those in this discussion. Their inevitable response to me: “Call your first witness . . . “

There is a world of difference between a criminal court/trial and a discussion on an Internet Forum. Just having this discussion would disqualify us from the jury pool. What a prosecutor can prove beyond a reasonable doubt is a far cry from what I would have to teach in a concealed carry class about the use of deadly force.

Besides, there's a reason prosecutors generally disallow lawyers from their juries. It's easy to be impartial but impossible to remove knowledge of the law from your head.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

There also needs to be an understanding that there are some pretty awful folks who need to be warehoused until they are not dangerous.

While that comment and others are not on point in re the original alleged crime there is one thing we can never forget and that is that there are some pretty awful folks who need to be warehoused forever because they are always dangerous. But, as noted, I digress......

 

[Muss Muggins]

. . . Just having this discussion would disqualify us from the jury pool . . .

I used to pick juries as part of my post retirement keep me busy job. No, it wouldn’t. . . .

Besides, there's a reason prosecutors generally disallow lawyers from their juries. It's easy to be impartial but impossible to remove knowledge of the law from your head.

Prosecutors only try to keep the bad lawyers off their juries. They try to empanel the good ones, but they’re smart enough to get removed before the selection begins . . .

 

[Chief Wiggums]

Welcome to Woke America.

its a gas , gas , gas.......

doesnt appear to be changing anytime soon.

 

[sousana]

When I go to bed at night I make it a point to leave a plate of the wifes home made cookies by the front door, the kitchen door and the living room door. Anyone breaking in is surely going to partake of a cookie or two thereby making it unnecessary for me to shoot them.