** Once and for all: POA of a fullsized M&P 40 **

[tbenedict]

Very good thread, I've been curious about this for a while. #2 is what I thought was right, but most SD seem to be set for #3.

 

[mrrstrat]

This is exactly what I get - the closer the target the more #2 seems to be dead-on. So closer would not be as sensitive to trigger pull issues as being 15 yards away is.

I went to the range on Wednesday and noticed that the three different handgrips 'altered' where the POI was. This tells me simple trigger pull and its a technique thing. I have only about 400 rounds through it and am still getting to know it.

When I went to the range on WED I tried #3 but noticed that the difference in aim was likely negligible to account for a 4-6 inch drop in POI from my POA at 15 yards.

I am seriously thinking at this point its all about technique 101: breathing and trigger pull.

It is quite true that the M&P pistols seem to make shooters 'hit low' without a change in shooting technique - does this sound crazy?

The M&P platform a great platform and is worth the effort to figure out.

Rastoff.

That's the sight picture I use. (#2)

From 5 yards to 15 yards all shots were dead center
but 2" low. I had to aim high to get a bull.

This was from a rest. All my other pistols shoot POA
not low like the M&P. I am trying to find out if S&W has
a lower front sight.

 

[Rastoff]

Rastoff.

That's the sight picture I use. (#2)

From 5 yards to 15 yards all shots were dead center
but 2" low. I had to aim high to get a bull.

This was from a rest. All my other pistols shoot POA
not low like the M&P. I am trying to find out if S&W has
a lower front sight availible.

Shooting from a rest makes me think it's more the gun. It could still be a shooter issue if your rest is not super stable, but I really think a different front sight will help you.

I am seriously thinking at this point its all about technique 101: breathing and trigger pull.

For 99.99% of the shooters, this is exactly correct.

It is quite true that the M&P pistols seem to make shooters 'hit low' without a change in shooting technique - does this sound crazy?

The M&P platform a great platform and is worth the effort to figure out.

It is a great platform and is worth the effort.

It's also true that a lot of people shoot low with this gun when they don't with others. I believe this phenomena is due to the tremendous amount of over travel in the trigger. This over travel causes everyone to move the sights a slight bit after the sear is released.

In your case, I'm pretty sure this is the issue. Since your shots are only low (not off to the left) I believe you have good trigger control and are being bit by the over travel. I'll bet a good lunch that if you install an Apex FSS kit, your shots will hit POA without going through re-learning how to hold the gun.

 

[Hotshot9]

Thanks for starting this thread... I'm not sure how I have been lining up my sights on my M&P9pc 5". But I do shoot it well. Now this gives me a very good reason to hit the range to see what I'm doing.....LOL ...I'll report back![/QUOT

OK so i went to the range yesterday and came to the conclusion that #3 is the right way to align. At least in my case. I used my M&P PC9 5" with everything factory set other than I use the large back strap on my grip. Shot 300 rounds from 5-7-10 and even 20 yards and was very happy with the results. Now one of these days I'm gonna have to figure out how to upload pic's on here. lol

 

[Fastbolt]

Using #2 is what I was trained to do but does *not* seem to work as the shots are lower.

I would be interested in what the law enforcement community that uses and trains with the M&P 9 and M&P 40 are taught...

I have changed the handgrips and found I can get better placement with the biggest handgrip - and feels the best in my hands. I think I should be using the medium one, but the biggest one seats it better for a 1911-type trigger squeeze.

Can anyone using one of these for a duty weapon chime in?

I've been shooting an issued M&P 40 for a while. I treat it like my personally-owned M&P 45 FS and 40c, as well as the various M&P9's I've shot. I use the sight picture where the top edges of the sights bisect the POI I wish to achieve (image #2 in the posted pics in the other thread).

I also like the small insert, as it gives me a feel like my 1911's with flat MSH's (I also use the smallest insert for the M&P45, for the same reason, and I have med/lge hands).

I use that sight picture to make called hits on small wooden clothespins placed around the outside of the target cardboard backboard, positioning them vertically, horizontally and at angles (to make them harder to hit if any deflection occurs during trigger press).

While the M&P 40 is one of the softest shooting FS .40's I've ever used, it can still result in some people experiencing a little of a downward deflection due to flinch/muzzle depression, in anticipation of the snap/torque effect. I usually have to use Dummy rounds, or otherwise have someone shoot an unchambered M&P 40 (with them thinking it's chambered), and experience the downward tremor at the end of their trigger press with recoil occurring, before they come to accept what they're doing.

Some other folks simply hold the pistol in such a way that their fingers seem to exert more downward pressure at their trigger break. It seems to be an angular/mechanical thing caused by their grip and the direction their finger is pulling the muzzle at the moment of their trigger break. It doesn't make it any easier if they lose sight of their sights as they expect the shot to break, meaning they don't "follow-through" with their sight picture, and can't see the sights (and muzzle) dip a little as the trigger press is completed.

FWIW, I only ended up with the M&P 40 because the M&P 9's were suddenly in high demand, along with the M&P 45's, so I told the guy in charge of the inventory to just issue me whatever he had the most of, so the regularly employed guys & gals could have their choice. I'm retired from full-time service, and only have an issued weapon because I continue to perform some Reserve functions for the agency. I didn't care which caliber they gave me, as all of the current M&P's are pretty nice to shoot.

Not everyone sees sights the same, it appears, either.

 

[OKFC05]

I use sight picture #2 with all my M&Ps, and the bullet hits about the top of the sight at around 15 yards. Makes it easy to empty the mag into the head of an IDPA target at 15 yards.
My rental/ loaner SW/SDs are sighted the same.

A large percentage of my basic students shoot low at first with my guns, up to a foot low at 5 yards.
One lady had been shooting her Glock for a year and could shoot a cup sized group at 5 yds....a foot low.
Most learn in class how to hold a gun and press the trigger, and then their sights are fine.

Sometimes for "experienced" guys, I have to take the gun and shoot a group to convince them the gun is fine, so they will stop demanding I adjust the sights.

I don't teach people to use modified sights pictures, I teach proper grip and trigger control, with the object of NOT breaking down on the shot.

 

[Rastoff]

Sometimes for "experienced" guys, I have to take the gun and shoot a group to convince them the gun is fine, so they will stop demanding I adjust the sights.

You're not alone with this. Many times in my CCW class students have asked if I would adjust their sights for them. I always respond, "Sure, when we get to the range, we can do that." Usually, after a little instruction, they quit asking to adjust the sights. Only a few times have I had to shoot their gun myself to show that it wasn't off.

 

[clarkz71]

It's also true that a lot of people shoot low with this gun when they don't with others.
I believe this phenomena is due to the tremendous amount of over travel in the trigger.
This over travel causes everyone to move the sights a slight bit after the sear is released.

Could be that is "my issue" as my old Glock had a better trigger
and as Randy has proven, the M&P9 has a short barrel dwell time.

I'll test that theory when I install the Apex FSS flat face.

I can see why you're an Instructor, and
Thank You for your Service

 

[Magload]

The question no one has asked is, how low are you hitting and at what distance?

The sights are intended to be used as in #2; top of front sight lined up with top of rear sight and equal daylight on either side.

For those suggesting #3, I submit this picture:

This is a real picture of a real M&P; not a drawing. Notice how the front sight looks smaller than the rear. That is not how it is depicted in the drawing. So, how do you line up the dots? Put the front in the middle, at the top or at the bottom of the rear dots?

Further, notice that in the pic the front dot is near the top of the rear dots. This is the only sight picture that will align the tops of the sights. If you were to put it in the middle of the rear, the gun would actually shoot lower.

Now, it's important to understand that this is really a moot point. If the dots really did look like the drawing posted above, all the same size, but you were supposed to use the top of the sights, the actual difference in POI would be insignificant; less than 1/4". Most POI issues with the M&P line are shooter induced.

That is the sight alignment I use but the front dot will be POI. Those rear dots are only there to find the rear sight quickly. My 9L FS doesn't even have them. Two inches at a SD range isn't going to mean much. My 1911s have no dots and POI is at the top of the front sight. The OP should use what works for him.

 

[ShelbyV8]

I don't think POA & POI are that black and white. Bullet weight, hand strength, upper body strength, and shooting technique are all factors. Lighter weight bullets are going to impact lower than heavier bullets in a given caliber. Each shooter is going to have make their own decision with their weapon and ammunition and a lot of practice.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Every pistol & revolver I've ever owned shoot POA/ POI
with sight picture #2 above.

This includes Glock, Sig, Beretta and all my Colt 1911's.

It's surprising, but relatively few owner's manuals even address HOW to use the sights... And it's also surprising that many gun makers don't use 3-dot sights.

I've used sight picture #2 with good success, and make adjustments to other sights so that all of my guns use something like that "adjusted" picture (i.e., the top of the sights aligned on the desired point of impact.)

Glock, in at least one of their manuals, does something quite different -- and they don't always use three-dot sights. This is from a Glock manual:

H&K offers an example -- this is from the VP9 manual-- which is, in effect, sight picture #2 as cited above. (It shows the front sight's dot as being smaller -- and the centers of the dots are aligned, which seems to make the top of the sights even!!)

I have a variety of different handguns, and also keep copies of various manuals on my hard drive. Darned few of these manuals, except those cited above, tell you how to use the sights. Beretta doesn't, SIG doesn't, CZ doesn't, Kahr doesn't, FNH doesn't, EAA/Tanfoglio doesn't, etc. -- at least in the manuals I have on hand or have copies on disk. All of the Colt 1911 manuals I can find (downloaded from the Colt website) recommend sight picture #1 -- which is a Bullseye hold -- even for the WWII reproduction model.)

I don't know where the folks who tell us what the proper method is are getting their info, but it doesn't seem to coming from the gun manufacturers, except in a few cases.

.

 

[Kodiakco]

How the sights are to be used is the best info

If someone knows how they were designed to be used to chime in would be great and solve this mystery once and for all.

After four pages looks like your answer is "there isn't one well defined standard". Sight picture is dependant on the user and the firearm. The "right way" is what works for you.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[YTL424]

M&P Core with Red dot

The Core is designed to co-witness with the iron sites, with the red dot just visible above the front sight. Iron sites would appear to require sight picture #1 to allow seeing the red dot.

Mine is a new manufacture with high front & rear sights to allow the co-witness.

Just another example/opinion.

 

[Rastoff]

Iron sites would appear to require sight picture #1 to allow seeing the red dot.

I'm not sure why you think this. They require #2 just like the regular sights. The fact that they co-witness is irrelevant.

Understand, co-witnessing does not mean you use the red dot and the irons at the same time.

 

[clarkz71]

I don't know where the folks who tell us what the proper method is are getting their info,
but it doesn't seem to coming from the gun manufacturers, except in a few cases.

I can only speak for myself, my experience with sight picture #2 is based
on owning and shooting several 1911's.

Beretta 92FS, Sig P220, 4 different Glocks, S&W 4506 and I could go on.
All except this M&P9 FS shot with #2.

Since my last post, I installed a Apex FSS flat face trigger kit
and will test the "over travel" theory. I think that is the issue.

.

 

[Raiderse]

Rastoff.

That's the sight picture I use. (#2)

From 5 yards to 15 yards all shots were dead center
but 2" low. I had to aim high to get a bull.

This was from a rest. All my other pistols shoot POA
not low like the M&P. I am trying to find out if S&W has
a lower front sight availible.

Yes they do , they had to put a different front sight on my 5" Pro Hits right on now. But they also change the barrel. The front site they used they said was form the Julie Golob model. Its green fiber optic but a little different from the original Fiber Optic Sight.

 

[Raiderse]

Like most people, I like the M&P 40 and the others (MP9, shield,..) lots. But the POA plagues me as it does others.

I am ex-military, ex-military law enforcement, expert with the .45 and most guns I shoot.

I have been treating it like a target pistol and then shooting it like a 1911 and I get a range of results (mostly low shots).

Now I just read that you are supposed to use the dots and not the top rail of the sights (with the dots being used as a quick way to align the sights).

I have been aligning the dots and placing the top of the sight line across/through and center mass of my target.

What is the preferred way for holding and sighting?? I feel like I am back in noob school asking such a silly question but many seem to ask it with respect to the M&P series......

My M&P hit low , S&W had to change front sight and barrel. I see so much of people complaining about this. Why don't any of the reviews comment on it? I too have several other handguns none of which hit low like the M&P did.

 

[Fastbolt]

This thread reminds me of one of the interesting things I liked about the Walther P99 series, including the SW99's I carried for work and personally-owned. That's the 4 differently sized front sight posts they included with the guns (including the one installed on the gun). Even the Trijicon night sights that used to be listed as "factory" sights offered a couple of different height front sight posts, although you had select which one you wanted to order (unlike with the plain plastic front sight posts that all came as part of the sight package on the older 99's).

The trick, however, was to be able to accurately diagnose whether it was a sight height/ammo problem, or a shooter/muzzle flinch problem, that actually needed to be corrected.

 

[fallhunter]

Line up the dots. When I do that, it's right on. Even at 15 yards, with an M&P 9c, I can put every round right on, and no bigger than a 3" group.

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[fallhunter]

Sight image 3. That's how I train. That's what I have been taught.

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