One charge hole won’t stage - help

[Wfevans4]

I’m relatively new to revolvers so I hope this makes sense. I have a new Model 19. I think it’s called “staging,” but I can stage the trigger before the gun fires on all but one charge hole in particular. Why is that? All the others, I pull the trigger slowly and it then it pauses and then will fire. One charge hole in particular does not stage. I can pull it and feel resistance, but there’s not that noticeable trigger pause right before the hammer goes down. It just clicks with no slight pause. So that ends up throwing me off a little.

Not sure if it matters - but I was also hit the arm with a black speck of gunpowder I’m guessing. Had to get some tweezers and pull it out of my arm. Left a mark. I think it’s called “spitting” and is somewhat normal, but to that extent? I only mention this second part to see if it’s somehow related to my original question.

 

[Nightowl]

I think when you say "staging", it is what we call "carry up". If you are right handed, hold the gun where the cylinder turns freely and slowly cock the hammer in single action with your right thumb. You should hear the cylinder stop slip up into the cylinder stop notches when the hammer is toward the back of the stroke. It sounds like you have one chamber that fails to "carry up". Most likely this is what caused the gun to spit lead into your arm. The spitting may be exacerbated by a too large barrel to cylinder gap as well.
Carry up issues require fitting a wider hand to the lockwork and is the hardest job for me as a S&W armorer. It should never be shipped like that from the factory, but sadly a lot of them have that problem. It is even worse if you are left handed and shoot double action as most of the Smith revolvers will not carry up on all chambers left handed even if they do when shooting right handed.

I think you should send the gun back to the factory for repair.

 

[gmarshall99]

Why would being a left handed shooter have an effect on carry up of the cylinder? I have over 40 Smith revolvers and have never experienced this issue. I am a left handed shooter.

 

[AJR337]

Why would being a left handed shooter have an effect on carry up of the cylinder? I have over 40 Smith revolvers and have never experienced this issue. I am a left handed shooter.

Due to slight tolerances/play in the mechanism and frame window, the hand can be canted very slightly to the right or left when pulling the trigger.

When pulling the trigger with your right hand, the hand is typically canted (very slightly) to the left (when looking at the gun from the back), which forces the hand to ride up the left side of the frame window and moves the hand closer to the extractor ratchets.

And conversely, when you pull the trigger with your left hand it cants the hand slightly to the right, which forces the hand to ride up the right side of the frame window and moves the hand away from the extractor ratchets.

Either way the hand cant is usually extremely slight, but in revolver that's already borderline with having proper carry up, it could be enough to exacerbate the issue.

 

[65Whelen]

Due to slight tolerances/play in the mechanism and frame window, the hand can be canted very slightly to the right or left when pulling the trigger.

When pulling the trigger with your right hand, the hand is typically canted (very slightly) to the left (when looking at the gun from the back), which forces the hand to ride up the left side of the frame window and moves the hand closer to the extractor ratchets.

And conversely, when you pull the trigger with your left hand it cants the hand slightly to the right, which forces the hand to ride up the right side of the frame window and moves the hand away from the extractor ratchets.

Either way the hand cant is usually extremely slight, but in revolver that's already borderline with having proper carry up, it could be enough to exacerbate the issue.

This all sounds good in theory but I can't believe its a very common occurrence given the number of S&W revolvers out there. Are you saying it's a combination of tolerance stack ups creating enough play in the action to affect the timing? Make me understand.

Back to the OPs question, his problem was only with on charge hole. Wouldn't the right hand left hand thing be consistent on all cylinders?

Regardless, being this is a new gun, send the gun back! There are serious issues, spitting and timing, that need to be addressed.

 

[AJR337]

This all sounds good in theory but I can't believe its a very common occurrence given the number of S&W revolvers out there. Are you saying it's a combination of tolerance stack ups creating enough play in the action to affect the timing? Make me understand.

I can only try to explain it...I can't make you understand or belive it.

I experienced it with one of my revolvers so I know that it does happen.

 

[bigggbbruce]

I can only try to explain it...I can't make you understand or belive it.

I experienced it with one of my revolvers so I know that it does happen.

I guess as long as you believe it. I use DA to check carry up. Does that make a difference.

 

[Tupperware]

Failure to carry up Is a real issue for lefty’s.
My brand new 617 displayed this tendency. S&W repaired it quickly and for no charge. The service person I spoke to agreed it’s a bigger issue for lefty’s. Timing is excellent on all chambers now.
In my experience, most shooters thumb cock revolvers and shoot them single action. They usually do this aggressively enough to cause the cylinder to carry up fully due to rotational inertia. The problem could exist but they never know it.
Another subset of shooters shoot them double action, but cycle the action fast enough that the cylinder also carries up fully, regardless of whether the problem exists in their gun. They, too, might not notice.
A few of us shoot double action slow enough that the cylinder has no inertia and will ONLY carry up fully due the mechanical action of the hand turning the ratchet on the ejector star.
To test for failure to carry up:
Cycle the unloaded gun double action, as slowly as you are able, while dragging a finger or thumb on the cylinder. If your gun is out of time you will see the hammer fall before the cylinder stop engages the notch. Many S&W revolvers will fail this test.

 

[65Whelen]

Failure to carry up Is a real issue for lefty’s.
My brand new 617 displayed this tendency. S&W repaired it quickly and for no charge. The service person I spoke to agreed it’s a bigger issue for lefty’s. Timing is excellent on all chambers now.
In my experience, most shooters thumb cock revolvers and shoot them single action. They usually do this aggressively enough to cause the cylinder to carry up fully due to rotational inertia. The problem could exist but they never know it.
Another subset of shooters shoot them double action, but cycle the action fast enough that the cylinder also carries up fully, regardless of whether the problem exists in their gun. They, too, might not notice.
A few of us shoot double action slow enough that the cylinder has no inertia and will ONLY carry up fully due the mechanical action of the hand turning the ratchet on the ejector star.
To test for failure to carry up:
Cycle the unloaded gun double action, as slowly as you are able, while dragging a finger or thumb on the cylinder. If your gun is out of time you will see the hammer fall before the cylinder stop engages the notch. Many S&W revolvers will fail this test.

I agree with your response and understand the effect of and difference between inertia carry up and mechanical. I've been aware of that and when testing timing would use the dragging method you described. When shooting (I'm lefty) I normally thumb the hammer back and have never experienced a problem with carry up. So it's not surprising I've not seen this problem.

I'm not saying anybody is right or wrong here. I just have a hard time understanding that there would be enough mechanical cycling variation depending upon right/left hand pressure applied to the trigger.

You mentioned S&W service fixed it quickly, did they say how they fixed it? And is something with newer guns?

Keeping an open mind, I'll will be spending some quality time with my Smiths to see if I might have a problem or not.

 

[Nightowl]

The lefty thing is a mystery to me too. I have several older 1950s .357s that do well both left and right. Even then, the left handed stroke does not carry up as quickly as the right hand. I have several newer guns that will carry up late, but will still carry up on some chambers, but will not on one or two! I shoot almost all double action closer than 25 yards, so it irritates me that this occurs. I have sent guns back to the factory with this issue noted, but they do not always fix it. It is frustrating!

 

[Phenix]

I think when you say "staging", it is what we call "carry up". If you are right handed, hold the gun where the cylinder turns freely and slowly cock the hammer in single action with your right thumb. You should hear the cylinder stop slip up into the cylinder stop notches when the hammer is toward the back of the stroke. It sounds like you have one chamber that fails to "carry up". Most likely this is what caused the gun to spit lead into your arm. The spitting may be exacerbated by a too large barrel to cylinder gap as well.
Carry up issues require fitting a wider hand to the lockwork and is the hardest job for me as a S&W armorer. It should never be shipped like that from the factory, but sadly a lot of them have that problem. It is even worse if you are left handed and shoot double action as most of the Smith revolvers will not carry up on all chambers left handed even if they do when shooting right handed.

I think you should send the gun back to the factory for repair.

One of the machined “notches” at the rear of the cylinder that the pawl tip pushes against is off.

 

[Tupperware]

65Whelen,
S&W replaced the hand.
Though this issue was on a modern 617-6, I’ve found it to be an issue on older guns more than the new stuff. Most of the modern (post lock) guns seem to have very consistent build quality, maybe due to accuracy of CNC machining?
This particular gun was purchased new, online, and I did not have ability to test it first.