One Hole, One Chamber, or Two

garbler

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After following the thread on pin gauges and chamber measurements in the ‘ Smithing ‘ section I recall reading years ago that many of the top match competitors knew that their revolvers had one or two chambers that shot better than the others. They numbered the cylinders so these chambers were identified and used in the Slow Fire stages. Then many years later I spent some time with Ron Power and Hamilton Bowen and they both said the same thing and in fact Ron Power numbers the chambers on all of his better comp gun builds.

When I got into the business I figured a Ransom Rest was needed to document performance with a signed target with load data. So one day I decided to look into this old belief that every revolver has one or two ‘best’ chambers. With a model 10, 19, 625, 686, 14 and Ruger Security Six and Vaquero 45 Colt. I then assembled a batch of ammo for each. Mostly my target loads with lead SWC bullets, same lube, no gas checks, firm roll crimps and loads chrono’d to be close as possible. I then brought out several boxes of Remington and Federal 38 Spl, 357, 45 Colt and 45 acp. My hope was to eliminate ammo as a variable the best I could. Barrels and chambers were thoroughly cleaned. Each gun was fired one cylinder full to foul barrels. Each chamber was marked with a felt pen. The test was shot indoors on a 50’ gallery course range — no wind.

At the end of the day the three of us had shot probably well over a hundred rounds maybe one hundred twenty-five and sure enough every gun had one or two ‘ best ‘ chambers. The model 625 and 686 had one chamber that was much more accurate than the other five. Both of these guns were printing one jagged hole on one chamber and roughly 1/2” on the others. The model 14 and Vaquero were all very accurate but two chambers printed a bit better. The other guns shot around .750” avg but one or two chambers outperformed with every cylinder full. In summary my little pseudo-scientific experiment did indeed demonstrate that these guns at least had one or two chambers that shot much better than their neighbors. There are some vague theories on why but uniforming chambers appears to answer most of the time, but not always according to some really good competitive shooters.

Rick
 
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I'm neither a gunsmith nor a machinist, so I could be wrong, but I always thought variations like that were likely due to tolerance stacking (I think that's the right phrase...?). Every alignment is within tolerance specs, but because of tiny differences within those tolerances, you may have some chamber dimensions and bore alignments better than others. I also think this is why guns can have so much variation in trigger pulls, even if the guns were consecutively pulled from the assembly line.
 
After following the thread on pin gauges and chamber measurements in the ‘ Smithing ‘ section I recall reading years ago that many of the top match competitors knew that their revolvers had one or two chambers that shot better than the others. They numbered the cylinders so these chambers were identified and used in the Slow Fire stages. Then many years later I spent some time with Ron Power and Hamilton Bowen and they both said the same thing and in fact Ron Power numbers the chambers on all of his better comp gun builds.



When I got into the business I figured a Ransom Rest was needed to document performance with a signed target with load data. So one day I decided to look into this old belief that every revolver has one or two ‘best’ chambers. With a model 10, 19, 625, 686, 14 and Ruger Security Six and Vaquero 45 Colt. I then assembled a batch of ammo for each. Mostly my target loads with lead SWC bullets, same lube, no gas checks, firm roll crimps and loads chrono’d to be close as possible. I then brought out several boxes of Remington and Federal 38 Spl, 357, 45 Colt and 45 acp. My hope was to eliminate ammo as a variable the best I could. Barrels and chambers were thoroughly cleaned. Each gun was fired one cylinder full to foul barrels. Each chamber was marked with a felt pen. The test was shot indoors on a 50’ gallery course range — no wind.



At the end of the day the three of us had shot probably well over a hundred rounds maybe one hundred twenty-five and sure enough every gun had one or two ‘ best ‘ chambers. The model 625 and 686 had one chamber that was much more accurate than the other five. Both of these guns were printing one jagged hole on one chamber and roughly 1/2” on the others. The model 14 and Vaquero were all very accurate but two chambers printed a bit better. The other guns shot around .750” avg but one or two chambers outperformed with every cylinder full. In summary my little pseudo-scientific experiment did indeed demonstrate that these guns at least had one or two chambers that shot much better than their neighbors. There are some vague theories on why but uniforming chambers appears to answer most of the time, but not always according to some really good competitive shooters.



Rick
Alex Hamilton of Ten Ring Precision has accurized several guns for me and he too numbers chambers and corrects undersized throats. He also re-crowns the barrel. I wonder if variations in throat diameter causes the accuracy variations.

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Lots of potential variables

First, let me say "neat project and interesting results"!

Wonder if results would stay the same over a number of repeated tests?

Also, maybe different loads would result in different chambers being most accurate?

Not denegrating your test nor suggesting you embark on a journey trying to sort out multiple variables - just idle curiosity.

Paul
 
A long time ago...

First, let me say "neat project and interesting results"!

Wonder if results would stay the same over a number of repeated tests?

Also, maybe different loads would result in different chambers being most accurate?

Not denegrating your test nor suggesting you embark on a journey trying to sort out multiple variables - just idle curiosity.

Paul

When I shot silhouette I tested my 617 extensively, with a scope, off a rest. I would shoot 6 targets, one shot per target, repeat 5 times. I would end up with a 5-shot group from each chamber. It turned out that one chamber consistently shot to a slightly different place than the other 5, with several kinds of ammo. If I included that chamber the gun would shoot a little over 4.5" at 100 yards, using just the other 5 would drop the groups to about 3.5".
 
First, let me say "neat project and interesting results"!

Wonder if results would stay the same over a number of repeated tests?

Also, maybe different loads would result in different chambers being most accurate?

Not denegrating your test nor suggesting you embark on a journey trying to sort out multiple variables - just idle curiosity.

Paul

Paul I wondered the same but honestly after working up identical loads for each gun and trying to keep some sort of benchmark to start from I just settled for the info I got. As you say there are lots of variables that could be introduced but I’ll let you do it. It’s not like a good rifle with one chamber, one barrel a six shooter can be a head scratcher. I’ve got three guns that Bowen homed throats on and two still have a ‘ best ‘ chamber - not much but enough to cost a competitor a scoring ring.

I forgot to mention that I was in the gunsmith business back then and every one of the test guns were thoroughly checked out by range rod, headspace, consistent cylinder gap etc etc. Each had a recut 11° cone. If you think about it a rough cone or nicked crown would equally affect all six rounds. One thing I did not do was test shoot with one round in each chamber thus eliminating weight or drag. All shots were full cylinders. I would have also preferred to include a couple of new factory guns but I still had to pay my bills and that isn’t always easy as a gun mechanic.

Rick
 
I have an old High Standard Centurion 22 with a nine shot cylinder. Groups always showed one flier, so I put an index mark with pencil and fired at nine bullseyes 5 times. Number 3 from my index point were all 2" left @25 yards. To date my eyes cannot see why and my set of pin gauges is .251-500. I don't shoot it enough to matter but but believe the principle extends to far more than tuned PPC guns.
 
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