One "What if" not discussed and that is what if your gun won't shoot?

[sirrduke2010]

Responding to armed hold up. You would cooperate and give them what they want. If they decide to take you to another location as a hostage you would fight and escape because your chances of survival aren't good if taken to a second location. The Police know this and I remember a situation at "B of A" bank a gunman had attaching a gun to the back of a tellers neck with Duct Tape. He surrounded himself with hostages and went out of the bank. The police shot the robber in the head with a sharpshooter but not before the gunman got off a round into the teller's neck. Fortunately the teller was OK but still went to the hospital.

Watch for a very nervous individual pacing back and forth before they enter a store. This is a sign he make commit a robbery. If you see him do something you are more ready to react. Give them the money and or wallet if they want it because it isn't worth dying for.

Incident in Santa Monica California where a robber entered a Mercedes Benz dealer and wanted a man's rolex. The man replied to the robber take your best shot so the robber shot him. I don't know if he actually got the Rolex. He was interviewed in the hospital and said he would do it again.


Personally I don't like to talk about my experiences so I don't but in two of the situations I thought I was going to die. I remember cooperating with one who was a gang member and giving him my wallet. Fortunately they didn't take hostages and they left after the robbery. They used the element of surprise and just walked in. I don't talk about the other one. I was fortunate in the other two that I was in the store but the gun wasn't on me. In one of the robberies I was at the robber had Duct Tape and a Hunting Knife so he was going to take hostages. This robbery was foiled. The Van Cleef and Arpel's jewelry store robbery in downtown L.A. the robber took hostages and a number of people were killed. The police killed three of the hostages in the ensuing gun battle. The robber was sentenced to death for this robbery and the killings. He killed a couple of the hostages himself.

I point out other specific crime scenes a lot because we learn a lot from the experiences of other victims. If you are going to use a gun you had better be quick and shoot for the right reasons which are to defend your life or someone else's.

 

[MaximumLawman]

Did I ever tell you about the time I built the great pyramids of Egypt....Hmmm...quite...

 

[Badkarma 1]

Let's see, my pistol is either jammed, or out of ammo, my back up is dry or a bullet jumped the crimp and tied it up, what to do?! Oh that's right I have a KNIFE and will hack, slash, stab, and cut my way through, and take said badies piece and use it on the other miscreants! Dale

 

[feralmerril]

Hey out thar! Kemo sabe! Kings? Kaint we all jis git along? UNCLE! I give!

 

[papajohn428]

Seriously?

I'd like to hear more about these incidents. Like how did you react to armed robbery?

We run these scenarios through our heads time and time again, but you have lived through them. What happened, and how did you get out of those incidents in one piece? Did you have to display your weapon? Did you arrest the perp?

In a nutshell, the two robbery attempts with guns were while I was out walking in my own neighborhood, which isn't the best. (Apparently I look like an easy mark......short, older, and white). Both suspects were observing me carefully, setting off warning bells, and when they started following me/moving to intercept I outflanked them. Both were halted at gunpoint, and disarmed. One was carrying a black Crosman BB pistol (which I still have) the other was carrying an UNLOADED RG snubby, which I made him throw down a sewer. No shots fired, both were advised to find other careers, and the police were never notified. Once again, Condition Yellow saved the day. I will NEVER understand people that live their lives with their head plugged into an I-Pod.

The attempted carjacking happened on a crisp, beautiful September afternoon, as I returned home from a local stop-n-rob. My .380 Bersa was under my leg, so I wouldn't forget to take it inside when I got home, I normally kept it in a compartment in the dashboard. As I approached a stop sign two miscreants walked into the crosswalk, and split to either side of my car. I saw them a half-block away, and had time to assess my situation. The doors were quickly locked, and the only open window was mine. I was "asked" for money as a foot-long BUTTER knife was drawn, and when he leaned closer to pull on my door handle, the muzzle of the .380 thudded into his forehead. Things got real polite as he tossed the knife away, and I never did figure out where miscreant #2 went, he flat disappeared as soon as the gun came into play. I drove home, debating whether I was having a heart attack, or just a serious adrenaline rush. Police were never notified, as all those folks wearing their pants too low and their hats backwards look the same to me.

There is no Citizen's Arrest in Missouri, and I'm not sworn personnel. I used to carry my spare cuffs, but got tired of the hassle. I could have held them, but I don't like cops responding to a "man with a gun" scenario, they don't necessarily know who's who, and my days of wrestling with people are long over.

I'll say one thing........after the incident with the .380, I decided I wanted a better gun, and bought a 45ACP pistol the next day. I now have six, and the seventh is on layaway!

And now you know why I don't get dressed without a gun in my pants. Or if I'm driving, a shoulder holster. No shots fired yet, but the guns have been displayed several times, and everything turned out fine. And hopefully the folks who were introduced to Mr Muzzle have decided to seek other opportunities.

 

[oldman45]

I'll say one thing........after the incident with the .380, I decided I wanted a better gun, and bought a 45ACP pistol the next day. I now have six, and the seventh is on layaway!

And now you know why I don't get dressed without a gun in my pants. Or if I'm driving, a shoulder holster. No shots fired yet, but the guns have been displayed several times, and everything turned out fine. And hopefully the folks who were introduced to Mr Muzzle have decided to seek other opportunities.

There is nothing better than the feel of money in your pockets, a .45acp in arms reach and a good looking lady on your side.

The .45acp is, in the opinions of many, the best self defense gun around. I love each of mine and my daily carry gun gets fired often. If and when I retire, I do not plan on dressing differently or not carrying any more. I would feel naked without my.45. I also know of at least two people that took up another line of work after a CTJ meeting with a 45acp.

Again, the idea is not to shoot someone but avoid a confrontation to begin with. If one appears unavailable, then it is time to bring the .45acp into play.

 

[Lost Lake]

Thanks for that real account papajohn. We all can learn something when we hear accounts of how things actually transpire when the doo doo hits the fan. I have been in a couple situations before I carried where I noticed things changing and could see I was being set-up and my only option was to get the heck out of there by any means.

Once coming around Chicago in a blizzard my truck started chugging and dying. I lost most of the engine power and could barely go 10 mph. The temp light was coming on and the engine light too. I called my wife to drive the 3 hours from home and rescue me. In the meantime I pulled into a bad neighborhood and found a gas station. I paid $12 for a jug of anti-freeze ( ) and the cashier was behind bullet proof glass. I figured I'd pop the hood, check the coolant and see if I could spot an iced up intake or wires off or something. It drove like three of the six plug wires fell off.

When I popped the hood (in a blizzard remember) two 'gentlemen' with the low hung pants and hats on backwards started walking toward me. One went around the backside and stayed rather far away while another came around the front of the truck. I positioned myself over toward the driver's fender and the closest man asked if I was having trouble from the passenger fender area. I said no, I was overheating and just was going to look things over.

As soon as I spoke he came closer and said he was a mechanic and he would be happy to take a look and he started grabbing at wires and touching things. That's when I panicked and he saw it. He said "What you scared of man? I just wanna help you out man. Let's take a look man." I said no thanks, I have called for help and I grabbed the hood to close it and dang near slammed it on his head. He was talking about how I didn't have to go, he could help, as I dove in the truck and locked the doors and chugged the dying engine to life. Now he was at my side window and the other guy was on the other side trying the doors. I drove out at a breakneck 5 mph and rolled chugging down the street hoping they wouldn't follow. Thank God there was a blizzard happening or they may have!

 

[snub56]

Well Mr. Sirduke I was noticing that many of your threads assume everyone on this forum is on the first 5 minutes of a concealed carry class. I own a revolver myself but I learned how to deal with both revolvers and semiautos when they will not work. The idea that the subject of the gun not working not being discussed is foolish.

 

[ol' geeser]

In the academy (back when the dinosaurs walked) we were taught NEVER to depend on the handgun to finish anything...Its was to be used to allow you to:
1. put distance between you and the BG
2. cover your attempt to find concealment and/or cover (not the same thing)
3. by some time to get to help, a real weapon-rifle or shotgun- or the h e double hockey sticks outta there

IF you choose to carry then YOU owe society and your loved ones to make double damn sure your weapon will function as intended EVERYTIME you ask it to.
I know, guns are machines and machines break, but if you pay attention to what it's trying to tell you when you are training with it 99.99% of the mechanical problems can be nipped in the bud. The same hold true with your BS detector. PAY ATTENTION....Training and 32 yrs. of street work have tattoed this on the back of my eyelids...

 

[steelhawk]

What kind of holster do you use? I can't seem to find one that is comfortable enough to wear while sitting in a car or restaurant, or with gym clothes, etc.

There are lots of good holsters, coupled with a good belt that are comfortable enough to wear all day long. I wear one all day long, whenever I can. Quality is synonymous with comfort.

As to the opening post, if you have to pull your gun out and point it at the BG, he will probably run. But if he doesn't and you have to fire because the crook is armed, and nothing happens, you will most likely get shot.

At that point, you can either run or attack with everything you have. Bite, kick, gouge, scream, do as much damage to the creep as you can.

 

[TAROMAN]

Great thought-provoking thread.
Lest anyone believe that even S&W revolvers are 100% reliable, my carry M60 would be a great example. The bolt broke in half, tying it up completely. Happened at the range while practicing, thankfully. It CAN happen to anyone, anytime.

 

[papajohn428]

Any mechanical device can fail, but revolvers are as popular as they are because they tend to work 99.9% of the time.

The only time I've had a revolver go down was when a hammer nose on an old company-issued Model Ten broke. I was in the middle of a string of bowling pins when it happened. I'd been issued the gun three years before, and had a shade over 46,000 rounds through it. By the time I turned it back in the round count (mine only) was nearly 70,000.

I'd call that a pretty good reliability record.

 

[Magnumdood]

Weapon failure

The good thing about a revolver failing to function is you can't do any malfunction drills like you would with a semi-auto pistol. Unless you can keep pulling the trigger and hope the first one was a misfire, close with your assailant and split his skull with your revolver.

These stats are somewhat dated, but I doubt they have changed much: The average gunfight occurs at a distance of 6' to 10', 1.5 rounds are fired, and it lasts 3 seconds.

Mindset is the most important variable in any deadly force encounter by far. Remember, they can hurt you, but they can't kill you. We preached that to rookies in the academy and reinforced it during in-service training.

They can hurt me, but they can't kill me.

 

[MaximumLawman]

Any mechanical device can fail, but revolvers are as popular as they are because they tend to work 99.9% of the time.

That doesn't make any sense. Virtually every police department in the country issues automatics, the "fancy" gun du jour is often a well-marketed copy of an auto patented in 1911, Smith and Wesson, known forever for their revolvers is making their own "1911" auto.....Compared to autos, revolvers are very UNpopular because among other things, autos are now extremely reliable and carry many bullets. I believe revolvers are as RELATIVELY popular as they are because they fill a niche not covered by autos and it has very little to do with superior reliability as compared to autos. You've got the "cool" factor because few people who carry guns for a living carry revolvers anymore, the nostalgia factor, the back-up gun factor and the "because I don't want to buy another gun" factor. Some people may carry a .45acp revolver instead of an auto in the same caliber because they believe the revolver is more reliable than a quality auto, but not many. And some will claim "reliability" because they don't want to admit that they carry a revolver because they think it's cool and unique and the stag grips make them look sexy.

 

[66TAS]

Hmm, next question: What is the percentage of gun guys who pick apart an extreme scenario so that they may survive the type of armed encounter than only a fraction of a percentage of a percentage of humans are ever likely to experience, who can reasonably extend their life by years or decades by merely giving up the cheeseburgers and diet Cokes...and who refuse to do so?

No need for anymore replies...this one has been answered!!

 

[Magnumdood]

Hmm, next question: What is the percentage of gun guys who pick apart an extreme scenario so that they may survive the type of armed encounter than only a fraction of a percentage of a percentage of humans are ever likely to experience, who can reasonably extend their life by years or decades by merely giving up the cheeseburgers and diet Cokes...and who refuse to do so?

And what, pray tell, is wrong with a Diet Coke?

 

[MaximumLawman]

Most folks I see drinking it seem to use it to rationalize the 6 coney's they're eating. I can say that because I've been there myself....

 

[oldman45]

That doesn't make any sense. Virtually every police department in the country issues automatics .

I will agree that many Depts issue semi autos. Not sure too many issue automatics. However that aside, I deal with several departments over the course of a week. I see maybe a couple departments a month that still use revolvers or where officers buy their own sidearm.

The demise of the revolver has not arrived and hopefully it is here to stay.

Many of us started with a revolver on our side.

 

[papajohn428]

That doesn't make any sense. Virtually every police department in the country issues automatics, the "fancy" gun du jour is often a well-marketed copy of an auto patented in 1911, Smith and Wesson, known forever for their revolvers is making their own "1911" auto.....Compared to autos, revolvers are very UNpopular because among other things, autos are now extremely reliable and carry many bullets. I believe revolvers are as RELATIVELY popular as they are because they fill a niche not covered by autos and it has very little to do with superior reliability as compared to autos. You've got the "cool" factor because few people who carry guns for a living carry revolvers anymore, the nostalgia factor, the back-up gun factor and the "because I don't want to buy another gun" factor. Some people may carry a .45acp revolver instead of an auto in the same caliber because they believe the revolver is more reliable than a quality auto, but not many. And some will claim "reliability" because they don't want to admit that they carry a revolver because they think it's cool and unique and the stag grips make them look sexy.

The trend away from revolvers in LE started back in the 80's, because there was a perception that cops were suddenly "outgunned" by gang-bangers who were all supposedly toting MAC-10's and AK-47's. The issue was capacity, not reliability.


When we transitioned to autopistols in the early 90's at my last two police departments, qualification scores dropped......for some officers qualification was VERY difficult. The manual of arms was far more complex, and it did cause problems. Training and equipment budgets, already strained, had to be bolstered to get officers up to speed on the autos, and it often took twice as much practice ammo before officers were considered proficient with their new sidearms. But it was NEVER about reliability!

 

[Lost Lake]

Most folks I see drinking it seem to use it to rationalize the 6 coney's they're eating. I can say that because I've been there myself....

I went to a business lunch with a BIG guy a few months back... I will never forget his order:

Double cheeseburger with mayo and bacon, and 1/4 pound of bbq ham on top.
A basket of deep fried cheese curds.
A basket of deep fried onion rings.
Ranch dressing to dip the food in.

And when the waitress asked "What would you like to drink?"
I almost fell out of my chair when he said a diet Coke.

That will stick in my head forever.....