Open Carry In Public Restaurants - What Would You Do?

PA Reb

PA Reb

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My lovely wife and I celebrated our 39th wedding anniversary yesterday and two of our daughters offered to take us out for Chinese. When seated, I was facing my oldest daughter and my four and seven year old grandchildren were seated beside her, both facing me also. A little while after starting to eat, a group of people came in and were seated behind my daughter / grandchildren. They all looked like perfectly normal people but one of them who was approximately late 20s or early 30s was open carrying a full sized .40 cal or .45 cal on his belt. He had it in a rig that held the gun almost horizontal to his waist and when he sat down in his chair, the gun was pointed directly at the backs of my daughter and grandchildren and directly at the front of both me and my wife. I could see plainly the gun was in a half cocked position so I assumed he had one in the pipe ready to go. In my opinion, we were sitting there with a loaded gun pointed straight at all of us. He also had a giant cell phone holstered on his opposite hip with a t-shirt tucked into his pants. It was like "look at me - I'm armed and ready for a fight" type thing. Anyway, I could see the gun was secure in the holster but it made me very uncomfortable - not that he was carrying, that it was pointed right at us.

I'm all for legal carry but am I wrong to think he should have at least worn something to conceal it better? I didn't say anything to him about it although I was tempted to ask that we be re-seated somewhere else. My questions to this forum is - was I being a little too paranoid and what would you have done in the same situation?
 
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I couldn't agree with you more. This is the reason why I won't carry a horizontal shoulder holster, you are pointing a firearm at everyone around you.

As much as I like guns, I don't like looking at the business end , I get nervous. especially around people I don't know. I won't even shoot at my local range if I don't know the other people there.

I probably wouldn't have said anything to the carrier but I very well may have moved.
 
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Even though you and yours were covered did you ever feel endangered? That being said the fact remained that a firearm was in a position to sweep others. I would have to base my next move on the attitude of the person carrying but the first thing would be to get me and mine out of any potential harm's way with as little fuss as possible.
I'm wondering if it's possible for open carry to morph into brandishing?

Congratulations by the way to you and the missus.
 
Several issues here

I won't criticize those who open carry except for the few who feel the need to conspicuously open carry. For me, having a concealed handgun is the more tactically sound carry method.

I've assisted lawyers in civil cases on holster related shooting injuries. All were self-inflicted. I've also used slant-type shoulder holsters which are quite popular and I feel that as long as the gun is not in Condition Zero, there's no danger to bystanders. Even then, the trigger must be pulled and held rearward for the gun to discharge.

However, when drawing from any form of shoulder holster, you not only sweep across a chunk of real estate but also your non-shooting arm. This is the main hazard with any form of cross-draw.

Maybe it's just me but I don't feel my safety is at risk by any handgun properly fastened in its holster, whichever way it's pointed.
 
1. New CCW Carrier
2. attempting to impress his friends/buddies
IMHO I would have requested to be moved to a different table on the other side of the room. (or departed the restaurant).
Re: Shoulder Holsters- I was at a agency where a investigator carried a Model 36 in a Berns-Martin type shoulder holster (weapon held barrel up, grip down). Revolver had a trigger shoe. Sitting at his desk, He took the weapon out and when he re-holstered it, the weapon fired wounding him in the shoulder/arm pit. Investigation found that enough of the trigger shoe extended out of the trigger guard that the edge of the holster caught of the trigger shoe to cause the weapon to fire.
 
It could have been a teachable moment for him if you approached him as a friend and a fellow gun lover.

It could be that it never even occurred to him that his securely-holstered gun was pointing at somebody.
He doesn't automatically earn the title "idiot" in my book. He'd have to be doing something more malignant than possessing a holstered gun to reach "idiot" status.

A quote that I learned from a very wise old friend:
"I didn't know that I didn't know." ;)
Maybe he just didn't know.
 
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PA is an open carry state, open carry is legal without any permitting for citizens, except in "cities of the first class". If he were to want to conceal his handgun he would have had to apply for a "license to carry firearms", which he may not have done, or wanted to do. The method of carry ie horizontal is the issue, and how many pocket carry and think about where your pistol is pointed.
I see nothing unsafe in the manner of carry, and do not subscribe to the hide it train of thought, that being said I would not open carry unless it was my only legal option.
 
If it's under a vest it's still pointed at you, only you don't know it...

I assume everyone's armed. They should assume the same.

For the very reason you stated open carry does not appeal to me. It simply makes too many people nervous.
 
Nobody should carry in such a way as to have the muzzle directed toward any target that isn't to be shot. Because: Discharge can happen if the carrier needed to draw.
There's no way to predict what another person might do, or when he might percieve a threat and feel the need to draw.
ND's can occur on the draw with any type handgun if there's a round in the chamber...

That said, the danger would have been no less if his weapon were concealed, so concealment shouldn't be an issue.
Actually, I'd prefer knowing, seeing and moving to another table.

Me personally, I'd have introduced myself, been friendly towards the right to bear, and mentioned my concearn and let the chips fall where they might.
 
I was at an Oklahoma State Cowboys football game a few years ago sitting in the endzone on the first row with my spouse and friends. There were a few OHP officers standing in front of us on the field a few feet away and most were in full uniform but one of guys was wearing cargo pants and a black turtle neck with a tan leather horizontal shoulder rig. I guess he looked pretty cool but the muzzle of his Sig was often sweeping me and my family and that .45 inch hole in the muzzle looked really big when it was pointed right at my face.
 
I'm guessing this happened in PA?

Knowing how a percentage of PA open carry folks behave, if you mentioned anything to him he might have started lecturing you about his rights, given you a pamphlet on PA gun laws, recorded the conversation on his phone, posted the video online, and told everyone on various forums to checkout his video containing a man freaking out over a "MWAG".

For those who don't know, PA (as I'm sure other states do) has a small percentage of the population who OCs just to make a point. They are armed not only with a firearm, but also with handouts, video/audio recorders, and an unfortunate attitude. They say their goal is to educate, but they go about it in a counterproductive way that makes people uncomfortable.

Not all who OC, but some.
 
My guess is I've had the business end of a gun aimed at me but I never knew it, because it was in a shoulder holster under a cover garment. I also carry in that method sometimes. When I do, I carry a 1911 & the thumb break snap is between the cocked hammer & the frame - no way that hammer is falling unless the gun is in my hand & I'm pulling the trigger.

That said, looking at holstered handgun muzzle - especially on a striker fired pistol - might make me a little nervous. I don't know that I would have said anything to the carrier, but I may have asked to move.

FWIW, I legally carry concealed & would recommend that method to anyone.
 
Where I live open carry is legal. It's not unusual to see regular, honest people carrying openly in restaurants and elsewhere......I don't see why some are shocked or concerned. Was the guy rude, obnoxious, or threatening anyone?? If not WHY are folks all bent out of shape.

As some have already mentioned.....I would be more concerned about where the concealed guns I can't see are pointing than the ones I can see.

The way I see it, if some "nut-job" were to come into the restaurant and try to rob or harm someone then there would be a lot of people "glad" that the good guy was there with his "legally" carried firearm.

Just my 2 cents!!


Don
 
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Farmer17 said:
I was at an Oklahoma State Cowboys football game a few years ago sitting in the endzone on the first row with my spouse and friends. There were a few OHP officers standing in front of us on the field a few feet away and most were in full uniform but one of guys was wearing cargo pants and a black turtle neck with a tan leather horizontal shoulder rig. I guess he looked pretty cool but the muzzle of his Sig was often sweeping me and my family and that .45 inch hole in the muzzle looked really big when it was pointed right at my face.
Click to expand...
While this case is right on the borderline of what is acceptable, it seems to me to be OK. If the SIG was what I think it was, that hammer was down, and not on a cartridge. There is a very good chance that the trigger guard was covered. To me, that gun is not a threat. What makes it borderline is that a negative reaction to seeing the muzzle head-on IS reasonable, even though thinking about it a while may help in reaching a different conclusion.

Although I understand those who disagree, I think that this is MUCH different from a cocked and locked 1911 pointed in your direction. First off, you may not even be able to see that the 1911 is locked. You may not know whether the grip safety is functional. You surely don't know what the trigger pull is, and who did the work. With some ******* who finds it necessary to open-carry a 1911 in a radical holster in a family restaurant, anything is possible, including sitting down and having the hammer hit a wall or a chair part.

It's idiots like this who almost give an excuse to the MA-mandated drop test.

P.S. Concerning concealed guns, the same applies. A few people carry them stupidly, and if I know about it (which, of course, I almost never will), I will take the same action, which would ordinarily be peaceful avoidance. Where someone's J frame is pointed while in his pocket is not my concern. Even in my own pocket, perhaps pointed at my own pride and joy, the only thing I need to do is keep other objects out of the pocket, except usually a pocket holster. Some guns are almost impossible to discharge accidentally, while others are almost prone to it. Most of us know the difference.
 
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I have to agree anything but vertical holsters worry me. Maybe I'm old school at 46 but with the explosion of carry permits being issued accidents happen. I was in Wal-Mart the other day and there was a guy about 30 open carrying a Springfield xd and walked up to me in the sporting goods section and asked me what 45 rds would be good to target practice with. I told him politely the federal aluminum case 45 ball. And it wasn't till after I thought to myself,this guy is carrying a 45 on his hip and doesn't even know the best ammo to target shoot with. It really made me wonder how much experience this man had with firearms. And I am in no way against open carry. And it usually puts a smile on my face to see someone exercising their 2nd amendment rights.
 
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Hillbilly77 said:
It could have been a teachable moment for him if you approached him as a friend and a fellow gun lover.

It could be that it never even occurred to him that his securely-holstered gun was pointing at somebody.
He doesn't automatically earn the title "idiot" in my book. He'd have to be doing something more malignant than possessing a holstered gun to reach "idiot" status.

A quote that I learned from a very wise old friend:
"I didn't know that I didn't know." ;)
Maybe he just didn't know.
Click to expand...

^^^^ This.

I agree with the above poster, and I absolutely, in as polite a way as I could have, would have mentioned to him that he was sweeping people and making them very uncomfortable.

I also would have moved and changed seating.
 
Wouldn't bother me if it was secured. If it was flopping around in a cheap holster I would have said something.

It's impossible not to sweep someone at some point. I carry iwb but I'm sure that when I bend down to tie my shoes I sweep someone. And if it was so dangerous and the popularity of shoulder holsters over the decades there would be a lot of wounded people. But there arnt
 
If the guy was pocket carrying a smaller gun and sitting across from you, the muzzle would likely be pointed in your general direction too.

There are any number of scenarios where a muzzle may be pointed toward someone while safely holstered.
 
Your instinct to protect your family and your self were 100% correct. I don't see any degree of unwarranted paranoia. As stated, I would have approached him as a fellow gun owner and asked him to sit in a different direction and describe how his carry rig could present a problem for him and for others. I find most gun people are very willing to listen to the opinions and suggestions of other gun guys. After all, the right to carry comes with responsibility.

Congrats on 39 years to both you and Mrs. Reb. Well done!
 
"IMPOSSIBLE NOT TO SWEEP SOMEONE"?

Gotta disagree there, no offense. If I am pocket/iwb/owb or pretty much ANY other manner of carry where the muzzle is facing the floor, I would have to be doing some kind of headstand/yoga/or other very unnatural positions to sweep someone. Being a gun guy and trying hard to be supportive of all gun guys rights, I would not have been able to eat comfortably with myself & family being swept & looking down the muzzle of a large bore. That would have consumed ALL my thoughts and attention, and I am guilty of owning a horizontal shoulder rig myself & have gotten similar complaints from friends while in the field. I definitely would have asked to be re-seated and explained why. To confront the OC'er would have surely been a bad move as I'm sure he had his speech prepared, could care less about anyone else's feelings & would have welcomed more attention. A word in private, or a note AFTER dinner maybe. Now to venture further out on thin ice & risk POing the 1911 crowd, yes the 1911 would get my vote for best semi EVER invented, the safety when carrying in condition 1 is in such a perfect position that unless you are extremely well controlled & trained it is like a second nature to flip it off when drawing, combined with a great light trigger, an errant trigger finger can & often does result in many ND's & MAY be one of the reasons a lot of issued guns are going DAO, JMO. Personally I hate DAO in a semi or revolver. I still shoot my revolvers DAO & can always stage the trigger if I want to. The soap box is all yours now.
 
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Jimmy J

jimmyj said:
1. New CCW Carrier
2. attempting to impress his friends/buddies
IMHO I would have requested to be moved to a different table on the other side of the room. (or departed the restaurant).
Re: Shoulder Holsters- I was at a agency where a investigator carried a Model 36 in a Berns-Martin type shoulder holster (weapon held barrel up, grip down). Revolver had a trigger shoe. Sitting at his desk, He took the weapon out and when he re-holstered it, the weapon fired wounding him in the shoulder/arm pit. Investigation found that enough of the trigger shoe extended out of the trigger guard that the edge of the holster caught of the trigger shoe to cause the weapon to fire.
Click to expand...

Jimmy J raises a good point regarding trigger shoes. These devices are known to have become loose and to slide down, preventing the trigger of a revolver from being pulled. You may use a trigger shoe on a pure target pistol but they are best avoided for SD firearms.
 
Model520 fan was right to be concerned about 1911s grip safety failure. Mine broke and it was easy to dryfire with out gripping it around the safety.
My Marine nephew discovered the problem, I never even thought to check it- just presumed it wasn`t failure prone.This was on a very lightly used Colt Gold Cup.
 
jimmyj said:
Re: Shoulder Holsters- I was at a agency where a investigator carried a Model 36 in a Berns-Martin type shoulder holster (weapon held barrel up, grip down). Revolver had a trigger shoe. Sitting at his desk, He took the weapon out and when he re-holstered it, the weapon fired wounding him in the shoulder/arm pit. Investigation found that enough of the trigger shoe extended out of the trigger guard that the edge of the holster caught of the trigger shoe to cause the weapon to fire.
Click to expand...

If you check with the makers of holsters I think you'll find that they specifically warn against using a trigger shoe in their holsters for just such a circumstance.

As for the OP I agree that would be uncomfortable but I would have talked to the gun carrier. I would have asked him to move the gun to some other position or perhaps change his position so the gun was not pointing at anyone. Pointing out that even though his gun appeared to be safe and secure the perception was that it wasn't. If he refused I would have asked for another table and asked that no one be seated behind the man till he left. I WOULD NOT engage him in a debate about his right to open carry.

If you have the legal right to open carry where you live I can't and won't stop you. I will, however, insist that you do so safely and with some thought to those in which you come in contact. Respecting others is part of the responsibility and good manors of carrying a gun openly or concealed. It is legal and has been to open carry where I live but until just a few days ago it was permitted for any government unit to make it illegal. The State Legislature fixed that by amending state statute to preempt those local laws for concealed permit holders.

About those monstrous horizontal shoulder holsters, I have never heard of a gun that was in a holster firing unless acted upon by external forces. I have carried a 1911 (and will again) in such a holster and for it to have fired would have required the hammer to some how strike the firing pin after going through the leather strap holding the gun in the holster. At the risk of offending some on the forum, I think that, at times,we worry too much about safety. Yes , yes, I know all the rules and platitudes but I still think some of us go too far with it. In what I like to refer to as my "real job" (I retired 14 years ago) I went through monthly safety meetings. Believe me safety is part of my life but you can over do it. Lighten up a little.

Let me give you an example: I spoke to one of the board of directors in my club about members walking off the range with their guns loaded (mostly handguns and in holsters). He said the club had no objection and didn't worry about it. My concerns were not shared by the club membership so I guess we're all adult enough to do so safely so I don't worry about it and I carry at the range myself now. You can bet your sweet bippy I still keep an eye on safety while I'm there. I just don't over do it.

This isn't meant to put any one down I'm just expressing my opinion. Rant over.
 
jimmyj said:
1. New CCW Carrier
2. attempting to impress his friends/buddies
IMHO I would have requested to be moved to a different table on the other side of the room. (or departed the restaurant).
Re: Shoulder Holsters- I was at a agency where a investigator carried a Model 36 in a Berns-Martin type shoulder holster (weapon held barrel up, grip down). Revolver had a trigger shoe. Sitting at his desk, He took the weapon out and when he re-holstered it, the weapon fired wounding him in the shoulder/arm pit. Investigation found that enough of the trigger shoe extended out of the trigger guard that the edge of the holster caught of the trigger shoe to cause the weapon to fire.
Click to expand...
Jimmy's #1 and 2 are spot-on.
Your story reminds me of one of my own. Back around 1978, I sold a fellow officer a beautiful nickel, square butt 36. He went and put a trigger shoe on it and carried it in one of those same shoulder holsters (Bianchi, IIRC.) Re-holstering, he blew a hole in his armpit.... and then he got mad at ME. Sheesh, I didn't set it up for suicide, HE did!:cool:
 
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