opinion?

pmanton

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A few months ago I got a Remington-Rand 1911A1 from CMP.
I set about obtaining the proper barrel grips, etc. I wanted to return it to as issued when new.

My wife chastised me. You're destroying it's history!

Opinion please. Am I a dunderhead? Or is my lovely bride out of line?
 
Depends on what barrel it came with. If it was a period barrel but not correct then I would leave it. If a new manufacturer then I would replace. Same with the grips etc. It's your gun do as you wish.
 
The 1911's coming from the CMP are parts guns already. The fact they came from the CMP with those little certificates means nothing, to me the "destroying history" thing on parts guns is kinda silly.

I have a couple of them from the CMP, that I'm well pleased with by the way, and the first thing I did was soak the grips in mineral spirits to get those ugly rack numbers off, then I searched the available data and reference books to see what parts it would take to bring them back to as manufactured. For me it's like a treasure hunt and I enjoy swapping parts with other like minded parts seekers.

Besides, those with interests in M1 rifles and M1 carbines have been doing this for decades.
 
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I have a Colt 1911A1 made in 1944 that I bought from a fellow R&P Club member for $300 before "Saving Private Ryan" came out and drove the price of these pistols through the roof. It's in beautiful shape, but I've been told by a couple of people over the years that if I replace a couple of small of GI parts it will be "all correct." Since I'm not anal about it, I have left it the wayv it is. The only things I changed were to replace the two generic, cheap commercial magazines with WWII era GI magazines. I enjoy it for what it is.
 
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PM,

I see it both ways and also have done both.

Carbines and Garands were my thing in 2006-2015 and part of the “game” was looking for parts to “correct” one that I wanted to be as issued. It was a blast, and each piece you found, or each additional rifle or carbine you came upon could have what you were looking for. It was an awesome treasure hunt!

Carry on!
 
Even if can find all the “correct” parts it’ll never be in original condition. You’ll tank value as well, since it’s a CMP gun. However it came from the government is it’s truest and most historically correct form. I say leave it alone.
 
My opinion (and this is just my opinion) is to leave them alone. I was issued weapons from the armory for 24 years. Never once did I check to see if all the parts were as it came from the factory. All we ever cared about was if it worked as advertised. Yes, the guns have a history if left in "As issued" condition. Start replacing parts and you loose that history. Bottom line the gun will never be the same. Guns with worn finish and replaced parts have "been there and done that". Those with no wear and tear on them are Safe Queens and Collector pieces with no real history. Those have never fired a shot in anger or in defense of ones self.......
 
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Got an original 1918 Colt 1911 that my Dad got back in the 30’s and bought a 1911A-1 way before the “ craze” came about. Gave both to my son years ago. Did buy a “ new” CMP on few years ago and it was just a parts gun. They are what they are.
 
My opinion (and this is just my opinion) is to leave them alone. I was issued weapons from the armory for 24 years. Never once did I check to see if all the parts were as it came from the factory. All we ever cared about was if it worked as advertised. Yes, the guns have a history if left in "As issued" condition. Start replacing parts and you loose that history. Bottom line the gun will never be the same. Guns with worn finish and replaced parts have "been there and done that". Those with no wear and tear on them are Safe Queens and Collector pieces with no real history. Those have never fired a shot in anger or in defense of ones self.......

Have thought about this a bit more. What I am trying to say a gun with no wear and tear or that has had some "collector" trying to make it correct lacks soul.
 
Have thought about this a bit more. What I am trying to say a gun with no wear and tear or that has had some "collector" trying to make it correct lacks soul.

^This. The worst examples of this are those that have to steam out the dents on a milsurp rifle stock, then follow up with TruOil or (shudder) polyurethane varnish. Throw in a bunch of cold blue on the wear spots and white material to make the crests and other markings on the metalwork easier to see and you have the complete 'bubba restoration".
 
A few months ago I got a Remington-Rand 1911A1 from CMP.
I set about obtaining the proper barrel grips, etc. I wanted to return it to as issued when new.

My wife chastised me. You're destroying it's history!

Opinion please. Am I a dunderhead? Or is my lovely bride out of line?

I think everyone including Veterans overlook that 1911s served in Korea, Vietnam and all types of actions including Haiti, Beirut, Grenada, Panama, Desert Storm and brought back for OIF/OEF.

The way it came from CMP is military issue. If you want a museum piece buy a museum piece. JMHO
 
The 1911's coming from the CMP are parts guns already. The fact they came from the CMP with those little certificates means nothing, to me the "destroying history" thing on parts guns is kinda silly.

I have a couple of them from the CMP, that I'm well pleased with by the way, and the first thing I did was soak the grips in mineral spirits to get those ugly rack numbers off, then I searched the available data and reference books to see what parts it would take to bring them back to as manufactured. For me it's like a treasure hunt and I enjoy swapping parts with other like minded parts seekers.

Typical collector, I am guessing you have no ideal what a "Rack Number" was for. Grandpa's "Dog Tags" can be recycled too.
 
I think everyone including Veterans overlook that 1911s served in Korea, Vietnam and all types of actions including Haiti, Beirut, Grenada, Panama, Desert Storm and brought back for OIF/OEF.

The way it came from CMP is military issue. If you want a museum piece buy a museum piece. JMHO

That is basically what I was saying in Post's 12 & 17. It is too bad that the guns can't tell us where they have been and what they have done. The wear and changed is like a road map of their history.
 
I would vote for as is condition.

I used to love safe queens and collectors. Nowadays I prefer a gun that has some use showing. My only "collector" is a Keith commemorative, unfired when I got it. I cured that condition. It's a good shooter, as 29-3's were known to be.

S&W marketed so many commemoratives that in truth they hold no more value that the same standard model in the same condition. There are lots of examples of this out there. Special interest collectors with a connection to the commemorated organization might pay more, but that's a limited group of folks.

For mine, the gold stuff will eventually wear off.
 
but if you keep all the parts it came with...it can go back to the way you got it, isn't that good enough for both of you? (as long as you're not refinishing anything)

or is this a woman thing trying to justify you not spending money thing?
 
I was the small arms repairman for the 1st Cav. Div when it was in Korea in 1959-1960. I repaired hundreds of 1911's and my shop van had thousands of parts for 1911's. I never paid attention to which slide went with which frame or where the barrel came from, I unwrapped the new part, installed it and sent them back into service. The 1st Cav was a tank division back then and tankers are really tough on their small arms.
I never saw a gun that wasn't a mixmaster!

Stu
 
I was the small arms repairman for the 1st Cav. Div when it was in Korea in 1959-1960. I repaired hundreds of 1911's and my shop van had thousands of parts for 1911's. I never paid attention to which slide went with which frame or where the barrel came from, I unwrapped the new part, installed it and sent them back into service. The 1st Cav was a tank division back then and tankers are really tough on their small arms.
I never saw a gun that wasn't a mixmaster!

Stu


I was a Guard Chief at a Marine Barracks in Ca. back in the late '80's. We had 50 M1911A1's assigned. All were so-so shooters. The 1stSgt. and I built M1911's as a hobby. One day the 1st Shirt said lets rebuild the pistols. We had parts bins full of parts to use. Started by fitting slide to frames, then bushings and barrels to slides, then barrel links. Ended up with 45 M1911A1's that would hold a 1 1/2"-2" group at 25 yards. the other five were really worn out so they stayed in the armory. Will neither confirm or deny that a Singer slide was found.........
 
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40 years ago when I got involved with DCM and collecting US surplus firearms (1911s, 1093A1s, 1903A3s, M1917s, M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, Victory models, etc) there was some sound reasoning behind keeping the uncommon unmolested firearm that had not been through a major arsenal rebuild in its pristine condition and they brought a little more money.

That obviously led to people taking those arms that were rebuilt to a military specification and tolerances, and then swapping parts to restore them to “original” condition. Most Garands were arsenal rebuilt in the mid 1960s and then either shipped out as military assistance or were stored against future need for military assistance. Those Garands often got new replacement barrels made in the mid 1960s (1966 is very common) and while they now don’t have a date that matches the date of the serial number on the receiver, they are much more accurate than a wartime barrel. Removing one of them just because you come across a “correct barrel to replace it would be farm animal stupi for both accuracy purposes as well as due top all the other critical dimensions and tolerances based on the specific barrel.

That was and remains problematic as those parts guns now no longer meet any specification, and the history they had is, as your wife correctly points out, destroyed.

Your wife’s got brains and she’s a keeper. Listen to her. Leave it the way the military rebuilt it before it was stored.


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I see the same thing with “National match” rifles that have “National match” parts stamped with “NM” on parts that were never stamped NM. Similarly, I’ll see National match rifles with matching/correct parts which virtually never happened and if it did it was random chance. The same goes double for the sniper Garands that were based on NM garands and tolerances.

For example when you are fitting the gas cylinder to the gas piston on a National match Garand, (after ensuring the operating rod and its piston head are within NM spec, along with the gas cylinder and then properly fitting and staking the gas cylinder in position) you select a gas cylinder lock that snugs up within a few degrees of dead center. A military armorer did that by digging into a bin full of gas cylinder locks and trying them until he got one that fit within tolerance. He didn’t care if it was an early humped gas cylinder lock to match an early receiver or not and he didn’t care who made it. He cared that it fit within spec.
 
I see the same thing with “National match” rifles that have “National match” parts stamped with “NM” on parts that were never stamped NM. Similarly, I’ll see National match rifles with matching/correct parts which virtually never happened and if it did it was random chance. The same goes double for the sniper Garands that were based on NM garands and tolerances.

For example when you are fitting the gas cylinder to the gas piston on a National match Garand, (after ensuring the operating rod and its piston head are within NM spec, along with the gas cylinder and then properly fitting and staking the gas cylinder in position) you select a gas cylinder lock that snugs up within a few degrees of dead center. A military armorer did that by digging into a bin full of gas cylinder locks and trying them until he got one that fit within tolerance. He didn’t care if it was an early humped gas cylinder lock to match an early receiver or not and he didn’t care who made it. He cared that it fit within spec.

May take a bit, but will check out a couple of M1 Garands with NM marked parts, A friend bought them out of a gun shop here in Fl. When he got them to Pa. he sent the S/N's to CMP. They letter as NM's shipped from the DCM. Will be interesting to see what parts are in them.
 
Your wife's right.

"Correcting" old military guns is a moronic practice that needs to stop.
 
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