AJ
US Veteran
That is basically what I was saying in Post's 12 & 17. It is too bad that the guns can't tell us where they have been and what they have done. The wear and changed is like a road map of their history.
opinion?
- Thread starter pmanton
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That is basically what I was saying in Post's 12 & 17. It is too bad that the guns can't tell us where they have been and what they have done. The wear and changed is like a road map of their history.
I would vote for as is condition.
I used to love safe queens and collectors. Nowadays I prefer a gun that has some use showing. My only "collector" is a Keith commemorative, unfired when I got it. I cured that condition. It's a good shooter, as 29-3's were known to be.
S&W marketed so many commemoratives that in truth they hold no more value that the same standard model in the same condition. There are lots of examples of this out there. Special interest collectors with a connection to the commemorated organization might pay more, but that's a limited group of folks.
For mine, the gold stuff will eventually wear off.
I used to love safe queens and collectors. Nowadays I prefer a gun that has some use showing. My only "collector" is a Keith commemorative, unfired when I got it. I cured that condition. It's a good shooter, as 29-3's were known to be.
S&W marketed so many commemoratives that in truth they hold no more value that the same standard model in the same condition. There are lots of examples of this out there. Special interest collectors with a connection to the commemorated organization might pay more, but that's a limited group of folks.
For mine, the gold stuff will eventually wear off.
44wheelman
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but if you keep all the parts it came with...it can go back to the way you got it, isn't that good enough for both of you? (as long as you're not refinishing anything)
or is this a woman thing trying to justify you not spending money thing?
or is this a woman thing trying to justify you not spending money thing?
I was the small arms repairman for the 1st Cav. Div when it was in Korea in 1959-1960. I repaired hundreds of 1911's and my shop van had thousands of parts for 1911's. I never paid attention to which slide went with which frame or where the barrel came from, I unwrapped the new part, installed it and sent them back into service. The 1st Cav was a tank division back then and tankers are really tough on their small arms.
I never saw a gun that wasn't a mixmaster!
Stu
I never saw a gun that wasn't a mixmaster!
Stu
Richard Simmons
Member
It will was only new once. Enjoy it!
AJ
US Veteran
I was a Guard Chief at a Marine Barracks in Ca. back in the late '80's. We had 50 M1911A1's assigned. All were so-so shooters. The 1stSgt. and I built M1911's as a hobby. One day the 1st Shirt said lets rebuild the pistols. We had parts bins full of parts to use. Started by fitting slide to frames, then bushings and barrels to slides, then barrel links. Ended up with 45 M1911A1's that would hold a 1 1/2"-2" group at 25 yards. the other five were really worn out so they stayed in the armory. Will neither confirm or deny that a Singer slide was found.........
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40 years ago when I got involved with DCM and collecting US surplus firearms (1911s, 1093A1s, 1903A3s, M1917s, M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, Victory models, etc) there was some sound reasoning behind keeping the uncommon unmolested firearm that had not been through a major arsenal rebuild in its pristine condition and they brought a little more money.
That obviously led to people taking those arms that were rebuilt to a military specification and tolerances, and then swapping parts to restore them to "original" condition. Most Garands were arsenal rebuilt in the mid 1960s and then either shipped out as military assistance or were stored against future need for military assistance. Those Garands often got new replacement barrels made in the mid 1960s (1966 is very common) and while they now don't have a date that matches the date of the serial number on the receiver, they are much more accurate than a wartime barrel. Removing one of them just because you come across a "correct barrel to replace it would be farm animal stupi for both accuracy purposes as well as due top all the other critical dimensions and tolerances based on the specific barrel.
That was and remains problematic as those parts guns now no longer meet any specification, and the history they had is, as your wife correctly points out, destroyed.
Your wife's got brains and she's a keeper. Listen to her. Leave it the way the military rebuilt it before it was stored.
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I see the same thing with "National match" rifles that have "National match" parts stamped with "NM" on parts that were never stamped NM. Similarly, I'll see National match rifles with matching/correct parts which virtually never happened and if it did it was random chance. The same goes double for the sniper Garands that were based on NM garands and tolerances.
For example when you are fitting the gas cylinder to the gas piston on a National match Garand, (after ensuring the operating rod and its piston head are within NM spec, along with the gas cylinder and then properly fitting and staking the gas cylinder in position) you select a gas cylinder lock that snugs up within a few degrees of dead center. A military armorer did that by digging into a bin full of gas cylinder locks and trying them until he got one that fit within tolerance. He didn't care if it was an early humped gas cylinder lock to match an early receiver or not and he didn't care who made it. He cared that it fit within spec.
That obviously led to people taking those arms that were rebuilt to a military specification and tolerances, and then swapping parts to restore them to "original" condition. Most Garands were arsenal rebuilt in the mid 1960s and then either shipped out as military assistance or were stored against future need for military assistance. Those Garands often got new replacement barrels made in the mid 1960s (1966 is very common) and while they now don't have a date that matches the date of the serial number on the receiver, they are much more accurate than a wartime barrel. Removing one of them just because you come across a "correct barrel to replace it would be farm animal stupi for both accuracy purposes as well as due top all the other critical dimensions and tolerances based on the specific barrel.
That was and remains problematic as those parts guns now no longer meet any specification, and the history they had is, as your wife correctly points out, destroyed.
Your wife's got brains and she's a keeper. Listen to her. Leave it the way the military rebuilt it before it was stored.
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I see the same thing with "National match" rifles that have "National match" parts stamped with "NM" on parts that were never stamped NM. Similarly, I'll see National match rifles with matching/correct parts which virtually never happened and if it did it was random chance. The same goes double for the sniper Garands that were based on NM garands and tolerances.
For example when you are fitting the gas cylinder to the gas piston on a National match Garand, (after ensuring the operating rod and its piston head are within NM spec, along with the gas cylinder and then properly fitting and staking the gas cylinder in position) you select a gas cylinder lock that snugs up within a few degrees of dead center. A military armorer did that by digging into a bin full of gas cylinder locks and trying them until he got one that fit within tolerance. He didn't care if it was an early humped gas cylinder lock to match an early receiver or not and he didn't care who made it. He cared that it fit within spec.
Change the parts you want to and save the ones it came with so you can put them back later on if you want to
AJ
US Veteran
May take a bit, but will check out a couple of M1 Garands with NM marked parts, A friend bought them out of a gun shop here in Fl. When he got them to Pa. he sent the S/N's to CMP. They letter as NM's shipped from the DCM. Will be interesting to see what parts are in them.
Trooper224
Member
Your wife's right.
"Correcting" old military guns is a moronic practice that needs to stop.
"Correcting" old military guns is a moronic practice that needs to stop.
Grayfox
US Veteran
The CMP guns are "as issued" to the troops. Meaning most have been rebuilt at least once and its doubtful any are original. CMP also replaced parts as needed. Many of these pistols have brand new parts in them as witnessed by the fact that some parts have a black finish rather than parkerized.
Also bear in mind that they were in storage in case they needed to be issued again.
The gun is more "original" as is. Replacing parts ain't gonna make it better.
Also bear in mind that they were in storage in case they needed to be issued again.
The gun is more "original" as is. Replacing parts ain't gonna make it better.
AJ
US Veteran
The CMP guns are "as issued" to the troops. Meaning most have been rebuilt at least once and its doubtful any are original. CMP also replaced parts as needed. Many of these pistols have brand new parts in them as witnessed by the fact that some parts have a black finish rather than parkerized.
Also bear in mind that they were in storage in case they needed to be issued again.
The gun is more "original" as is. Replacing parts ain't gonna make it better.
The M1911A1's were sent to "War Stores" when taken out of service. The Navy sent their to NWS Crane, Ind. for rebuild. There the pistols were disassembled, worn parts replaced and the guns reparked. How do I know this? In 1989, I was stationed at Naval Station Long Beach, Ca. I was tasked with training their Auxiliary Security Force. They were to be armed with Mossberg 500's and M1911A1's. I ordered 50 M1911A1's for the ASF, what I got in looked like brand new pistols. Has anybody seen anything like that coming out of CMP yet?
Never understood the restoring to original fad. Keep in mind some of these were mixmasters coming from the factory. Lots of parts swapping went on back then, more so with carbines, but all programs did it.
I have a CMP 1943 Rem Rand with a post war barrel and a '50's vintage Colt hard slide. So the gun isn't original to WWII, but it is probably what would have been issued during the Viet Nam war since most 1911's had been rebuilt at least once by then. That is interesting to me if for no reason but my age - that's the war I paid attention to, not WWII. So mine will stay exactly as I received it and exactly as it would have been, or maybe was, issued in the 1960's.
AJ
US Veteran
Have reference books that give me lists of what the different carbine manufacturers supplied to each other also. There was a war on and nobody cared what parts were in what as long as they had a complete weapon that functioned. Thank God, for Eli Whitney!
Puller
Member
I do not, but I don't particularly care either. (By the way, my grandfather was wearing his dog tags when he was buried).
I respect those who would choose to leave theirs as is. Interesting how the consideration is not reciprocated by so many in this thread. The great thing about living in America is that I can pretty much do with my personal property as I wish.
Grayfox
US Veteran
Some of the earliest Round 1 guns looked like that. I saw a few that people posted pic of here. Unfortunately, mine was well worn.
My other one was from Round 4. Looking at it and pics others have posted, the guns coming out now have a lot of replacement parts in them. As I said, these are easy to spot because the new parts have a black finish instead of parkerized. My Round 4 gun had the slide stop and all the frame pins replaced.
Near as I can tell, all the really nice ones are long gone.
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AJ
US Veteran
Some of the earliest Round 1 guns looked like that. I saw a few that people posted pic of here. Unfortunately, mine was well worn.
My other one was from Round 4. Looking at it and pics others have posted, the guns coming out now have a lot of replacement parts in them. As I said, these are easy to spot because the new parts have a black finish instead of parkerized. My Round 4 gun had the slide stop and all the frame pins replaced.
Near as I can tell, all the really nice ones are long gone.
Thanks for the update. The completely refurbished pistols were probably Navy/Marine Corps. The worn finish guns were possibly Army/Air Force.
Faulkner
Member
AJ
US Veteran
I was very pleased with mine from Round 3.
Is it all Remington?
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