Opinions on .455 H.E. - keep or sell?

[USMC0802]

Hello everyone,

I recently purchased an extremely clean .455 2nd Model HE, and as is so often the case, I was working with so-so pictures and a non-gun-savvy seller. What I knew up front was that the grips were wrong (very clean c. '50s Magnas), but he couldn't tell me if it had been converted from .455 - it arrived, and thankfully the conversion was limited to lengthening the chambers to accept .45 Colt and beveling the back edge of each chamber slightly to facilitate easier loading. No modification to allow .45acp on moon clips.

My dilemma is this: At heart, I'm a purist. Modifications (with few exceptions, such as period target grips/sights) are usually the kiss of death in my mind, but the condition of this revolver is what has me on the fence...

I am interested in the opinions of more senior Smith collectors with regard to whether this one will be worth the substantial cost of acquiring "correct" grips, or whether it will always be "just another modified military revolver". I know everyone approaches these issues differently, but I am interested in the different perspectives, and hope that it will help me make up my mind as to how to proceed. After subtracting the value of the Magnas, I have approximately $500 tied up in it at this point, so $500 + "new" grips is where I'll be if I go that route.

Bottom line I guess is how bad does the chamber modification hurt the desireablility of this revolver as a long-term investment?

 

[USMC0802]

Additional photos

 

[USMC0802]

More photos

 

[USMC0802]

Final set of photos


In the end, I know I will have to make my own decision as to whether I ought to "catch and release" this one, or add it to the "permanent" collection. Unfortunately at this point, I can only really afford to keep the best investment for my buck, and have got to make up my mind whether high finish condition outweighs the conversion. Commentary is much appreciated!

Thanks,
Tyler

 

[DWalt]

"...the conversion was limited to lengthening the chambers to accept .45 Colt and beveling the back edge of each chamber..."

The chamber mouth is probably not beveled, but recessed slightly to allow the rim of the .45 Colt to partially seat. This method also allows use of the original .455 cartridge with a larger rim diameter and thinner rim. Fortunately, this is the best way to do such a conversion, and in fact S&W did a few conversions this way themselves.

As regards the price you paid, I do not think it was excessive, and I would pay it. But I would buy it as a shooter, not a collectible. I expect you will get a lot of different opinions on this, and will have to make the "keep or dump" decision on your own. Completeness, condition, and originality are the primary determinants of value. You have one out of three.

 

[Memphis]

Condition does seem to stand out on that gun. I would have been all over it at what you paid for it (even with the mods).

Roger

 

[Nightowl]

What you have is an original .455 that someone modified to make it more usable to them, probably a good many years ago. Guns like this I appreciate for what they are, and were modified to do. I have changed triggers and hammers on my guns to make them more shootable to me, and it helps me to understand what others did to their guns to make them work for them. I wouldn't even go to the trouble or expense to find original era stocks, as that would not make it original, just similar. I would keep it as is, or change the stocks to make it more shootable for me!

 

[lebomm]

My course would be to keep the gun, find correct stocks for it, and shoot it as a .45 Colt. It's really in spiffy shape and, barring mods, a very nice specimen of the model. But the decision is, of course, ultimately yours.

Larry

 

[The Gila Bender]

It looks like a nice shooter and I happen to be looking for a 2nd Model .455 bored to accept .45 Colt. If it was my decision I'd slap a set of Ahrends targets on it and start blasting.

I have been in your place many times. I once had a lettered KCPD .357 3-1/2" that had been re-finished several times, blue then nickel then back to blue, and had a sprung crane. It was going to be an expensive PITA to bring it to a "restored shooter" condition. I saved myself much pain and anguish by sending it to a new owner. Another example is a cosmetically challenged 629-2 Mountain Revolver suffering the effects of kitchen table gunsmithing. It was restored by Nelson Ford and today is a personal favorite. I have two guns with barrel bulges, a transition .44HE 3rd and a 1950 Model .38/44 OD. They are terrific shooters and the OD is in original, near-perfect cosmetic and mechanical condition. There are others - a .44HE 2nd, a .38/44HD, and a 29 Classic - that arrived with some mechanical flaw that was easily fixed.

I think you have a nice shooter that was tastefully and correctly modified. Enjoy it for what it is.

 

[Muley Gil]

I collect shooters. I had one like it back in the late '70s, except that mine was a reblue. It was a fun shooter.

For me, I would leave it as is, including the '50s Magnas, and shoot the snot out of it.

 

[Texas Star]

The fact that you have not bonded with the gun for what it is (and you have a real prize there from the perspective of all but a purist collector) makes me think that you should sell it to someone who will view it for the history and precision gunmaking that it is and not view it from just a dollar perspective.

I'd keep it and shoot it ocasionally, probably keeping the 1950's stocks if they fit properly or replacing them with Ropers from a good modern maker. I'd probably find a Tyler adaptor if I didn't get the Roper style grips. Given that I'd keep the lanyard swivel, I think Magna stocks and an adaptor would be the answer. In a perfect world, I'd find some smooth rosewood factory Magnas at a price I could afford and find that they fit this particular frame just right.

But you and I seem to view guns from very different perspectives. If you just want the max. from your investment, I think you should sell it to someone who really wants it. Then, if they want the "correct" stocks, let that be at their expense. i doubt you'd get enough for the altered gun to warrant stocking it yourself and hoping that that'd drive the price up enough to warrant laying out the time and money needed to get a really nice set of original type grips.

Today, fools or people with money to burn do pay outrageous sums on Gun Broker, etc., so you might get more than I'd think. If money is what you want instead of the gun, you could go that route and hope for the best.

If you do shoot it, bear in mind that the cylinder was made for .455 ammo and it was not heat treated. Stick to cowboy loads or std. velocity ammo.

 

[Hondo44]

I agree with everything that's been said.

It's clearly not what you intended, you'll never be happy with it.

It is a prize however for many in it's condition and most proper conversion method that will shoot both cartridges safely. You can get your money out of it.

1.) So shoot it a little and hang on to it as a very nice specimen until you can replace it with an all original example, then turn it.

2.) Or just sell it now to Tom, "The Gila Bender" and make two people happy!

My vote is for #2.

 

[66Park]

I don't buy guns for the investment value. I buy them because I love them. If they happen to be worth more down the line, great. I don't buy a lot of guns, but I do buy guns that thrill me, so, even though I don't rule out selling any of them, I am quite sure that most of them will be with me when I die. If I want to invest, I invest in stocks, etc.

If I had seen that gun for $500 and knew that it was rechambered, I still would have thought it was a great deal. It's a fantastic looking gun! And since it has been rechambered, I would load it up with cowboy loads and get myself to the range. And I would be very happy!

You obviously aren't happy with the gun, and it seems like if you'd known it was rechambered, you wouldn't have bought it. If you are never going to be happy with it, Tom seems like he's a ready buyer. Sell it to him and use the money to buy something you're happy with.

 

[44wheelman]

I've got a .455 converted 1st model, and I think about selling it; however, I've decided to wait til something better comes along because it's my only TL, and it's in good shape.

I'd wait to find one to replace it before selling, but I guess that would depend on what other 2nds you may already have, and what you like collecting.

Yours is about the nicest export/converted 2nd I've ever seen; I assume the flags/crown marks indicate it went to England?

I bought some Remington bullets for it; a couple bags of molly coated .454 RN hollow base which at some point I will try.

 

[Bill Bates]

It looks like a keeper to me. The conversion was done well, the condition is good and it is a great caliber. What N Frame that is that nice and goes bang in .45 Colt can you buy for $500.

 

[Jack Flash]

Put me down as an interested buyer assuming you do decide to sell and if for whatever reason Tom declines. I know what a purist collector would say, but to me the gun is actually better now than before the conversion.

I assume the flags/crown marks indicate it went to England?

Yes, that is right.

The crossed pennants are an English Proof Mark.

The "stack" of markings:
Broad Arrow - Military acceptance mark
Crown - "Property of the Crown"
U9 - Indicates the individual inspector
E - Inspected and accepted into service at the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield Lock, by inspector U9
II - I always thought this meant it would fire the Mark II version of the .455 Webley cartridge, (ie, the "nitro" version). Others say it indicates the second model (ie, after 1st model from S&W, the triple lock).

Someone may have to correct me on that last one.

Welcome to the Forum!

 

[Hondo44]

Put me down as an interested buyer assuming you do decide to sell and if for whatever reason Tom declines. I know what a purist collector would say, but to me the gun is actually better now than before the conversion.

Yes, that is right.

The crossed pennants are an English Proof Mark.

The "stack" of markings:
Broad Arrow - Military acceptance mark
Crown - "Property of the Crown"
U9 - Indicates the individual inspector
E - Inspected and accepted into service at the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield Lock, by inspector U9
II - I always thought this meant it would fire the Mark II version of the .455 Webley cartridge, (ie, the "nitro" version). Others say it indicates the second model (ie, after 1st model from S&W, the triple lock).

Someone may have to correct me on that last one.

Welcome to the Forum!

Jack,

You're correct: the Mk II refers to the cartridge, the gun is a 455 HE 2nd Model.

 

[USMC0802]

Hi Guys,

Sorry for the absence; I've been out of town for a few days. Comments are much appreciated. It's not that I am "unhappy" with it, just on the fence because I like several things about it, but don't know if I should replace the stocks. Presently, I am leaning toward keeping it and keeping an eye out for a re-blued or otherwise monkeyed-with revolver as a "grip donor". When viewed through the lens of "updated" to .45 vs "modified", my collector's OCD is soothed a bit.

For those to whom my motivation matters, I am simply trying to limit my collection to those pieces which I find interesting AND are a good place to put my dollars. Unfortunately, I do not have the luxury of unlimited disposable income, so the ones I keep need to be smart investments as well. I have run into this "controversy" in several collectors' circles of which I am a part (especially so in Japanese swords). I am a collector first because I love the history and the item, but I disagree with the perspective that ALL that matters is how the owner "feels" about the item, investment value being almost disregarded by some. Not meaning to sound critical, just offering this by way of explanation.

Thanks again!

 

[USMC0802]

Oh, and whatever becomes of this one, I WILL be shooting it

If it does end up being sold, I will come back to this thread first. Never know what else will show up, and then we get back to that whole limited gun-money situation!

 

[Iggy]

I have 455 HE Mk II quite similar to yours with all of the proof marks listed above to relay it's history.
Mine has been converted even more than yours. It has been refinished.
It has been converted to 45ACP/AR. The barrel is 45ACP with Canadian proof marks and the 45ACP/AR cylinder, based on the serial number is from an Argentine model 1937.

It has no collector value, but I like it and it's fun to shoot.