Original New Model #3: Chart of shipping dates

Win38-55

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I am interested in getting an idea of the correlation between the New Model #3 serial numbers and their shipping dates. I figured I'd start a chart that each person who has lettered their New Model #3 from Roy Jinks could contribute to. Just copy the latest chart from the previous message and insert your serial number and shipping date. Let's keep the chart ranked by serial numbers in ascending order (early serial numbers at the top, later ones further down). Here's my contribution for starters:

Serial #...Shipped
8823 ...... March 9, 1880
 
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I am interested in getting an idea of the correlation between the New Model #3 serial numbers and their shipping dates. I figured I'd start a chart that each person who has lettered their New Model #3 from Roy Jinks could contribute to. Just copy the latest chart from the previous message and insert your serial number and shipping date. Let's keep the chart ranked by serial numbers in ascending order (early serial numbers at the top, later ones further down). Here's my contribution for starters:

Serial #...Shipped
8823 ...... March 9, 1880
 
Originally posted by Win38-55:
I am interested in getting an idea of the correlation between the New Model #3 serial numbers and their shipping dates. I figured I'd start a chart that each person who has lettered their New Model #3 from Roy Jinks could contribute to. Just copy the latest chart from the previous message and insert your serial number and shipping date. Let's keep the chart ranked by serial numbers in ascending order (early serial numbers at the top, later ones further down). Here's my contribution for starters:

Serial #...Shipped
8823 ...... March 9, 1880

2773..........9/1/1879

6740 ..........3/7/1882

6763 ...........3/15/82

18099...........11/10/1883

28501 ..........8/12/1896

31779 ..........8/7/1899

52 Frontier 44/40 5/13/1891

2001 Target ....... 3/30/1893

3384 Target..........5/11/1899
 
I would like to expand this to include other data such as caliber, bbl length, sights, finish, grips, shipped to. If you interested let me know or send the info directly to [email protected].

Here is what I have for the existing list

6561 9 August 1881
24672 11 August 1904
29035 4 September 1893
So much for the theory that the lowest number left first. Both 24672 and 29035 shipped overseas.

981 Frontier 44/40 11 Dec 1893
2100 Target letter pending probabaly late 1893
 
Here's an updated list so far, not including the Frontiers and the targest, which seem to have serial number ranges of their own? If you have new data to add, qoute this message and insert your serial numbers at the right location:
New Model #3
Serial #...Shipped............ Caliber & Type
2773 ...... Sept. 1, 1879
6561 ...... Aug. 9, 1881
6740 ...... March 7, 1882
6763 ...... March 15, 1882
8823 ...... March 9, 1880 ... 44 Russian, 6" barrel, nickel
18099...... Nov. 11, 1883
24672...... Aug. 11, 1904
28501...... Aug. 12, 1896
29035...... Sept. 4, 1893
31779...... Aug. 7, 1899

New Model #3 Target
2001 ...... Mar. 30, 1893
3384 ...... May 11, 1899

New Model #3 Frontier 44/40
52 .......... May 13, 1891
981 ........ Dec 11, 1893
 
That is correct the 32-44 and 38-44 targets are numbered in their own sequence as are the 44-40 and 38-40 and the rimfires. I would still like to see all models included in the list.
 
Okay, I've modified the list to include the Target type and the Frontier type. Also added an extra column for other info, such as caliber and type. If you have new data to add, quote this message and insert your serial numbers at the right location:
New Model #3
Serial #...Shipped............ Caliber & Type
2773 ...... Sept. 1, 1879
6561 ...... Aug. 9, 1881
6740 ...... March 7, 1882
6763 ...... March 15, 1882
8823 ...... March 9, 1880 ... 44 Russian, 6" barrel, nickel
18099...... Nov. 11, 1883
24672...... Aug. 11, 1904
28501...... Aug. 12, 1896
29035...... Sept. 4, 1893
31779...... Aug. 7, 1899

New Model #3 Target
2001 ...... Mar. 30, 1893
3384 ...... May 11, 1899

New Model #3 Frontier 44/40
52 .......... May 13, 1891
981 ........ Dec 11, 1893
 
Well - I'm not much of a mathematician, but I would say that this data

Serial #...Shipped
2773 ...... Sept. 1, 1879
6561 ...... Aug. 9, 1881
6740 ...... March 7, 1882
6763 ...... March 15, 1882
8823 ...... March 9, 1880
18099...... Nov. 11, 1883
24672...... Aug. 11, 1904
28501...... Aug. 12, 1896
29035...... Sept. 4, 1893
31779...... Aug. 7, 1899

looks pretty good. All those guns were shipped in about a 25 year period.

That is about all you can say about them !

Regards, Mike Priwer
 
Data that does not fit our expectations is better than no data at all.
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To make matters worse, I've read that all the frames for the New Model #3's were made and serialized prior to 1898, qualifying all of them for antique status. Canada recognizes all New Model #3's as antiques, provided they are in obsolete calibers, such as the 44 Russian.
 
Interesting that Canadian law excludes 44R from modern calibers, but 44 Russian is currently commercially produced by at least 4 manufacturers as evidenced by the Midway web site. Quick buy the gun before the politicians find out.
 
I think the Canadian politicians have the right idea by ruling that antique pistols are not a firearm. However, their restrictions by caliber are not necessary, as any caliber can have ammo made for it (I roll my own). It is not the caliber that keeps the gangs on the streets from using antique pistols, it is the rarity of the handguns themselves that justifies the antique designation. They are simply too hard to find and too expensive to attract the interest of the average bad guy. Modern semi-auto pistols are much more attractive to the average gang member. The vast majority of people are completely unaware of antique handguns and wouldn't even know where to find one if they wanted to. I'd like to see all pistols and rifles made before 1898 ruled as antique here in Canada. Forget about caliber designations. These old classics never will be an attraction to the drug-dealing rapper.
 
Data that does not fit our expectations is better than no data at all.

Given all the discussions, and information, that have been posted on this site, as well as others,
run it by me one more time as to exactly what these expectations were .

Thanks in advance, Mike Priwer
 
I added ser#35102 shipped in very late 1915.

Originally posted by Win38-55:
Okay, I've modified the list to include the Target type and the Frontier type. Also added an extra column for other info, such as caliber and type. If you have new data to add, quote this message and insert your serial numbers at the right location:
New Model #3
Serial #...Shipped............ Caliber & Type
2773 ...... Sept. 1, 1879
6561 ...... Aug. 9, 1881
6740 ...... March 7, 1882
6763 ...... March 15, 1882
8823 ...... March 9, 1880 ... 44 Russian, 6" barrel, nickel
18099...... Nov. 11, 1883
24672...... Aug. 11, 1904
28501...... Aug. 12, 1896
29035...... Sept. 4, 1893
31779...... Aug. 7, 1899
35102...... Dec. 28, 1915 ... 44 Russian, 5"Bbl, TgtSites, Non-rebounding Hmr, Nickel.

New Model #3 Target
2001 ...... Mar. 30, 1893
3384 ...... May 11, 1899

New Model #3 Frontier 44/40
52 .......... May 13, 1891
981 ........ Dec 11, 1893
 
Mike,
I don't know you and I know you are a regular contributer to the forum. Let me say this we are sharing information on a SW model we have a mutual interest in. With all due respect, why do you care? If you choose not to participate in this particular exchange of information then don't, but please do not question our right to share information with another member of this board. If you have reason to believe this exchange is somehow detremental to one or all us this please advise as to your concern.
No offense intended or taken.
Buffalo Nichols
 
Originally posted by mikepriwer:
Data that does not fit our expectations is better than no data at all.

Given all the discussions, and information, that have been posted on this site, as well as others,
run it by me one more time as to exactly what these expectations were .

Thanks in advance, Mike Priwer

I didn't have any, but I am interested in data, probably why I started school when I was 6 years old and am still going to school at the age of 53.
icon_smile.gif


I do notice, however, that there does appear to be a better correlation between serial number and shipping dates for the serial numbers less than 8,000. I wouldn't be surprised if other correlations emerged with a larger sample. For example, there may be runs of serial numbers that do correspond to a trend in shipping dates.

So far, the Schofields seem to be better correlated.

Bottom Line: I find data like this interesting.
 
My point is, and this has been discussed numerous times, that if you try to look
for close correlations between serial numbers and shipping dates, then you do
not understand the manufacturing process.

The manufacturing process was based on batch-production of frames, as well as
other parts, in anticipation of eventual orders for completed guns. No one is
quite sure of the size of these batches, but the best estimates are in the
vicinity of 100 to 500 frames, and sometimes more. There is evidence that they
were sometimes about 1000.

At some point in the manufacturing cycle, when the frames were sufficiently
completed to allow serial numbering, they were serial numbered in these large
batches. The serial-numbering machine was self-incrementing, but sometimes it
was not started at the right serial number, for a particular frame. If it was
set too early, then duplicate serial numbers would result, and there are
numerous examples of these in the records. If it was set too late, then a gap
appears in the records. Sometimes this gap was noticed later, and was filled.

As the frames were serial numbered, they were placed into large bins, or boxes,
or barrels. Because of this prodedure, the first in were the last out. And,
sometimes, the bins or boxes or barrels were not completely emptied before
another batch of frames was dumped on top of them. And, sometimes , a box of frames
would get misplaced, only to be found several years later, and used at that time.

As part of the factories scheduling, a sizeable number of guns were always being
made up, and placed into inventory, in a large holding area. There seems to have
been no plan as to first-in, first-out. As collectors, the only date available
to us is the shipping date, not the manufacturing date. So, here again is another
opportunity for the serial number to be completely irrelevant to the shipping
date. I have owned identical consecutively-serial-numbered 1905's, shipped 8 years apart.

Over long periods of time, lower-serial-numbers are shipped before higher-serial-
numbers. But this is only over long periods of time, like several years. But over
shorter periods, like months or even one or two years, the order is likely to
be anything.

It is also well-known that Colt in particular, and quite possibly S&W on occasion,
would reverse the order of the serial-numbers being shipped. Colt did this to
give the illusion that their production was higher than it actually was. On
occasion, S&W may have also done this.

So, in answer to this question: "With all due respect, why do you care? "
I care a lot. What I care about most is that collectors understand what they are
doing. I care enough to learn what the production process was all about, so
that I don't go off on illogical tangents. I care enough to take the time, over
and over, to help people to understand these things. I care because I don't like
to see mis-leading conclusions being drawn from mis-leading data. Some collectors
will read this mis-leading data, and think there is something important there.

That is what I care about.

Later, Mike Priwer
 
That sounds similar to Winchester's production practices, although their serial numbers, over the long range, do correlate rather well with dates.

I don't see how this real data is misleading. You can already see that serial number progression does not necessarily correlate with date progression. I've never seen a chart of this data. Perhaps Roy Jinks has been compiling a searcheable data chart, but I don't have access to that. I like to have data. A person who has data has more knowledge than a person who does not. I don't think this is a question of either/or .... either a person relies on urban stories about what S&W's manufacturing practices were but has zero data to back it up; or a person has lots of data but no concept of what S&W's manufacturing practices were (although the latter person could certainly infer what the practices were by looking at the data). Rather than an either/or situation, both data and historical accounts of what went on are important.

The chart already gives info that is consistent with your conjecture of what S&W's manufacturing processes were. If we could get at least a hundred data points here, we'd have a very interesting piece of information. It won't help the new fellow trying to date his gun, but it is useful for other things, at least to flesh out an idea of S&W's manufacturing processes and what years had more orders than other years, etc.
 
Kirk

Roy doesn't do these kind of studies. The reason he doesn't is that he knows
that the guns were not built, or shipped, in serial number order.

I think you are not being objective with yourself. I think that the reason you
want to look at this data is to uncover some relationship between the shipping
date and the serial number. Maybe it's enjoyable for you to do this. But the
reality is that there is no relationship, other that they obvious long long term
connection.

I argue that it is a misleading effort - just by virture of the fact that you are
doing it, and presenting it to others. Its entirely possible that some short
sequence will be in perfect correlation. But that would be entirely coincidental.
It is not a cause and effect relationship, but I suspect that if you came across
such a sequence, you would think that it was important, or at the very least,
interesting.

The relationship between serial numbers and shipping dates is random, by definition
of the production practice. Its misleading to look for meaning in random data.

Later, Mike Priwer
 
Why are you so defensive, is there something only a few are allowed to see, are we not allowed to share data and let the assumptions fall where they may. That is why I ask for more than the serial number and the ship date. Is there a problem with knowing finish, barrel length, grip style, where shipped to and caliber? Is there something to hide? From such disassociated data many discoviries have been made or at least data is gathered as a basis for further research to be developed
 
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