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Why are you??? Mike
Original New Model #3: Chart of shipping dates
- Thread starter Win38-55
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Buffalo Nichols
US Veteran
KKG,
I am not sure your intention, are you scouraging me or mike priwer? Do you have a dog in this hunt? Do you wish to contribute? I have no wish to disparge anyone from this forum nor discourage any free disperal of information. I collect NM#3's because I think they are the best single action SW ever produced. I find the production data in all aspects facinating.
I am not sure your intention, are you scouraging me or mike priwer? Do you have a dog in this hunt? Do you wish to contribute? I have no wish to disparge anyone from this forum nor discourage any free disperal of information. I collect NM#3's because I think they are the best single action SW ever produced. I find the production data in all aspects facinating.
Mike, I would have thought that you should be able to tell from the little bit of data that has already been posted that there is not much of a relationship between serial numbers and shipping dates. I think we can all see that. We are not babes in arms that need to be protected from real data in case we get mislead.
The shipping dates are not completely random. For example, it is doubtful that serial numbers 1 through 5 weren't shipped until 1912. If you think a data base of serial numbers and shipping dates is worthless, then I must confess that I am mystified. I use searchable databases on a daily basis and they really speed up the acquisition of knowledge. What we have on this thread is a very tiny sampling that we can search visually in a few seconds. I think it would be a worthy effort for someone to compile a huge searchable data base. I would be surprised if Roy Jinks is not beginning to do that. Everytime someone sends in a request for a letter, it would make good sense to record the serial number and the found data in a computer file. Five years later, after the pistol has changed hands and the new owner writes in for a letter, the whole search doesn't have to start from scratch all over again. The serial number is simply typed in and up comes all the data, including scans of old records, etc.
Mike, are you suggesting that average folk should not compile serial numbers and shipping dates and descriptions, or that this information should not be available for the public to see. I get suspicious when I hear stuff like that. Why do you not want the public to have this kind of information. Fearing that the poor, deluded public might be misled just does not wash. I collect old Winchesters as well and when I encounter a Winchester collector who doesn't want me to know stuff like serial numbers, shipping dates, factory info, etc. I get real suspicious. I, and a friend of mine, have been burned in some Winchester deals when we first started out because the sellers (who were very serious collectors themselves) knew we were new collectors. He could mislead me and overcharge me and pass off guns that did not letter to me, just so long as I didn't find out the real data. Because of having been burned bad in the past, when you don't want people to know the factory info on these old guns, I get big red flags, Mike.
The shipping dates are not completely random. For example, it is doubtful that serial numbers 1 through 5 weren't shipped until 1912. If you think a data base of serial numbers and shipping dates is worthless, then I must confess that I am mystified. I use searchable databases on a daily basis and they really speed up the acquisition of knowledge. What we have on this thread is a very tiny sampling that we can search visually in a few seconds. I think it would be a worthy effort for someone to compile a huge searchable data base. I would be surprised if Roy Jinks is not beginning to do that. Everytime someone sends in a request for a letter, it would make good sense to record the serial number and the found data in a computer file. Five years later, after the pistol has changed hands and the new owner writes in for a letter, the whole search doesn't have to start from scratch all over again. The serial number is simply typed in and up comes all the data, including scans of old records, etc.
Mike, are you suggesting that average folk should not compile serial numbers and shipping dates and descriptions, or that this information should not be available for the public to see. I get suspicious when I hear stuff like that. Why do you not want the public to have this kind of information. Fearing that the poor, deluded public might be misled just does not wash. I collect old Winchesters as well and when I encounter a Winchester collector who doesn't want me to know stuff like serial numbers, shipping dates, factory info, etc. I get real suspicious. I, and a friend of mine, have been burned in some Winchester deals when we first started out because the sellers (who were very serious collectors themselves) knew we were new collectors. He could mislead me and overcharge me and pass off guns that did not letter to me, just so long as I didn't find out the real data. Because of having been burned bad in the past, when you don't want people to know the factory info on these old guns, I get big red flags, Mike.
Buffalo Nichols
US Veteran
Buffalo Nichols, that Schofield you entered here has got me curious. The serial number looks to be too high to have been numbered in the Schofield series, but since it letters as a Schofield, were some Schofields numbered in the NM #3 serial series?
Buffalo Nichols
US Veteran
Kirk,
The one I listed is a New Model #3 that is chambered in 45 Schofield, not a Schofield model. There is another pictured in the Neal & Jinks book "S&W 1857 to 1945" on page 182, mine is configured the same way except for the front sight.You will note the serial numbers are very close. Sorry for the confusion. And by the way thank you for starting and defending this thread.
The one I listed is a New Model #3 that is chambered in 45 Schofield, not a Schofield model. There is another pictured in the Neal & Jinks book "S&W 1857 to 1945" on page 182, mine is configured the same way except for the front sight.You will note the serial numbers are very close. Sorry for the confusion. And by the way thank you for starting and defending this thread.
By gum, I'm learning more all the time. I didn't realize that the New Model #3 was also chambered in the 45 Schofield, but then again, it makes perfect sense to put that chambering in the very fine New Model #3. Here's the latest chart then:
New Model #3
Serial #...Shipped............ Caliber & Type
2773 ...... Sept. 1, 1879
6561 ...... Aug. 9, 1881 .... 44 Russian, blued, 6.5" bbl, smooth wood grips
6740 ...... March 7, 1882
6763 ...... March 15, 1882
8823 ...... March 9, 1880 ... 44 Russian, 6" barrel, nickel
18099...... Nov. 11, 1883
24672...... Aug. 11, 1904 ... 44 Russian, blued, 6.5"bbl, checkered wood grips, Japan
28501...... August 12, 1896
29035...... Sept. 4, 1893 ... 45 Schofield, blued 6.5" bbl, hard rubber grips, target sights, England
31779...... Aug. 7, 1899
35102...... Dec. 28, 1915 ... 44 Russian, 5"Bbl, TgtSites, Non-rebounding Hmr, Nickel.
35602.......Ltr pending ...... 44 Russian, blued, 6.5" bbl. target sights, cut for shoulder stock
New Model #3 Target
2001 ...... Mar. 30, 1893
2100 ...... Ltr Pending ..... 38-44
3384 ...... May 11, 1899
New Model #3 Frontier 44/40
52 .......... May 13, 1891
981 ........ Dec 11, 1893 .... 5"bbl, blued, hard rubber grips
New Model #3
Serial #...Shipped............ Caliber & Type
2773 ...... Sept. 1, 1879
6561 ...... Aug. 9, 1881 .... 44 Russian, blued, 6.5" bbl, smooth wood grips
6740 ...... March 7, 1882
6763 ...... March 15, 1882
8823 ...... March 9, 1880 ... 44 Russian, 6" barrel, nickel
18099...... Nov. 11, 1883
24672...... Aug. 11, 1904 ... 44 Russian, blued, 6.5"bbl, checkered wood grips, Japan
28501...... August 12, 1896
29035...... Sept. 4, 1893 ... 45 Schofield, blued 6.5" bbl, hard rubber grips, target sights, England
31779...... Aug. 7, 1899
35102...... Dec. 28, 1915 ... 44 Russian, 5"Bbl, TgtSites, Non-rebounding Hmr, Nickel.
35602.......Ltr pending ...... 44 Russian, blued, 6.5" bbl. target sights, cut for shoulder stock
New Model #3 Target
2001 ...... Mar. 30, 1893
2100 ...... Ltr Pending ..... 38-44
3384 ...... May 11, 1899
New Model #3 Frontier 44/40
52 .......... May 13, 1891
981 ........ Dec 11, 1893 .... 5"bbl, blued, hard rubber grips
Its clear, to me, that some of you are fascinated with the relationship between serial
numbers and shipping dates. Otherwise, this whole discussion would not have started.
In a proper research environment, one would have proposed an idea, developed it into a
hypothesis, and then tested it by gathering unbiased data, and in some manner or other,
evaluate that data vis-a-vis the hypothesis. In this case, it has been done backwards.
I explained the manufacturing process, and all its implications. From that explanation, it
should be expected that the guns would not be in serial number order. The next step would
be to examine the data, to see if, in fact, that is so. And, of course, the data bears
that out. The data is not in serial number/date order because the guns were not made that
way. But - this was foregone conclusion.
There is nothing wrong with gathering data, but you are not doing it in a constructive way.
You have focused on the serial-number shipping-date relationship, when in fact there is none.
This is not the right thing to do.
The data would be far more interesting, and informative, if you gathered information about
the guns themselves. You should first identify what serial number series you are interested
in. Then, in that series, you should gather things like:
Barrel length, Finish, Caliber, Sight configuration, where shipped, anything special,
and then lastly, way out on the end of the record, the shipping date.
In this manner, the data can be used to learn things about the guns that are not in the
factory records. For example, with enough data, you could answer the question about
how many 4" barrels were made. Records like this were not kept, but are of keen interest
to collectors when it comes to thinking about the value of the gun. Or, you might be able
to make inferences about how many guns (in that series) were finished in nickel.
Joe Miller, on his S&WCA site, has gathered data like this for a number of S&W's. Its a
very useful datasbase for learning those things that are not in the factory records.
The thing about data is that, by virtue of how it is gathered, and how it is presented,
an implication of importance is thereby attached. In the case of this data, it has been
gathered and presented in a serial-number shipping date context. There is no importance
or significance to that relationship. The data is good and interesting as it relates to
survivors, but it is not good or interesting vis-a-vis shipping dates and serial numbers.
Later, Mike Priwer
numbers and shipping dates. Otherwise, this whole discussion would not have started.
In a proper research environment, one would have proposed an idea, developed it into a
hypothesis, and then tested it by gathering unbiased data, and in some manner or other,
evaluate that data vis-a-vis the hypothesis. In this case, it has been done backwards.
I explained the manufacturing process, and all its implications. From that explanation, it
should be expected that the guns would not be in serial number order. The next step would
be to examine the data, to see if, in fact, that is so. And, of course, the data bears
that out. The data is not in serial number/date order because the guns were not made that
way. But - this was foregone conclusion.
There is nothing wrong with gathering data, but you are not doing it in a constructive way.
You have focused on the serial-number shipping-date relationship, when in fact there is none.
This is not the right thing to do.
The data would be far more interesting, and informative, if you gathered information about
the guns themselves. You should first identify what serial number series you are interested
in. Then, in that series, you should gather things like:
Barrel length, Finish, Caliber, Sight configuration, where shipped, anything special,
and then lastly, way out on the end of the record, the shipping date.
In this manner, the data can be used to learn things about the guns that are not in the
factory records. For example, with enough data, you could answer the question about
how many 4" barrels were made. Records like this were not kept, but are of keen interest
to collectors when it comes to thinking about the value of the gun. Or, you might be able
to make inferences about how many guns (in that series) were finished in nickel.
Joe Miller, on his S&WCA site, has gathered data like this for a number of S&W's. Its a
very useful datasbase for learning those things that are not in the factory records.
The thing about data is that, by virtue of how it is gathered, and how it is presented,
an implication of importance is thereby attached. In the case of this data, it has been
gathered and presented in a serial-number shipping date context. There is no importance
or significance to that relationship. The data is good and interesting as it relates to
survivors, but it is not good or interesting vis-a-vis shipping dates and serial numbers.
Later, Mike Priwer
Buffalo Nichols
US Veteran
According to all of the source books I have the NM#3 was offered in the following calibers.
32 S&W, 32-44 S&W, 320 S&W Revolving Rifle, 38 S&W, 38-40 Winchester, 38-44 S&W, 41 S&W, 44 Rim Fire Henry, 44 S&W American, 44 S&W Russian, 44-40 Winchester, 45 Schofield, 450 Revolver, 45 Webley, 455 Mark I, 455 Mark II. The 32-44 and 38-44 Targets (4334 total)are in a seperate serial number range as are the 38-40 (74 total)and 44-40 (2073 manufactured but 786 were converted to 44 Russian so there are only 1287 in original configuration and caliber). In Jim Supicas lateste book it indicates that some calibers such as 44-40 may exist in the main serial number range. So confusing but I hope that helps.
32 S&W, 32-44 S&W, 320 S&W Revolving Rifle, 38 S&W, 38-40 Winchester, 38-44 S&W, 41 S&W, 44 Rim Fire Henry, 44 S&W American, 44 S&W Russian, 44-40 Winchester, 45 Schofield, 450 Revolver, 45 Webley, 455 Mark I, 455 Mark II. The 32-44 and 38-44 Targets (4334 total)are in a seperate serial number range as are the 38-40 (74 total)and 44-40 (2073 manufactured but 786 were converted to 44 Russian so there are only 1287 in original configuration and caliber). In Jim Supicas lateste book it indicates that some calibers such as 44-40 may exist in the main serial number range. So confusing but I hope that helps.
Buff, all very interesting. Just makes the New Model #3 more fascinating than ever.
Mike, you are right about hypothesis, details, etc. I'd love to see that info on the S&WCA site, but I noticed that it costs money. I guess I'm not a serious enough collector, otherwise, I'd have no problem with the membership fee (I am a member of the WACA). I just have one, single New Model #3 (photo below) and I'd like to get an original Schofield. I spend my days doing science, up to my eyeballs in aligned sequence data, writing software to mine that data, exploring the implications for protein folding, writing papers for science journals, etc. I come here for a break .... just to enjoy. I'm enjoying this thread (except for your comments that express, shall we say, a certain 'lack of enthusiasm' for this thread).
Here's what I'll say to you, from a serious Winchester collector to a S&W collector: When I see a new fellow who doesn't know a whole lot about old Winchesters enthusiastically discussing something that I've known about for a dog's age and that has been discussed long before the new guy ever came along, I don't ridicule him, tell him this has been discussed a thousand times already, talk down to him, and in general, treat him like a moron. Quite the contrary; I encourage him and contribute to his knowledge in a down-home kind of way. This weekend, I've invited a new Winchester collector to spend the weekend with me and my family. He's a new fellow who got taken bigtime by an experienced collector who didn't want him to know things like factory info on serial numbers, etc and sold him an altered gun for an impressive price. He's coming over this weekend to get an education in what to look for in original old Winchesters, how to reload for the obsolete calibers, do some shooting, and just have a good time talking about old Winchesters while enjoying good coffee and good food. I don't know you, and perhaps you come across in a pompous, know-it-all way that is not at all the way you really are, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Nevertheless, you really need to be more encouraging to new guys who may not know a whole lot and who enjoy simple things like the chart in this thread for example.
Now here's a photo of my entire antique S&W collection (it may be a very small collection, but I ain't proud
) : A New Model #3 shipped in 1880 with a factory 6" barrel and all matching serial numbers.
Now, does anyone have anymore data to update the chart with?
Here's the latest version:
New Model #3
Serial #...Shipped............ Caliber & Type
2773 ...... Sept. 1, 1879
6561 ...... Aug. 9, 1881 .... 44 Russian, blued, 6.5" bbl, smooth wood grips
6740 ...... March 7, 1882
6763 ...... March 15, 1882
8823 ...... March 9, 1880 ... 44 Russian, 6" barrel, nickel
18099...... Nov. 11, 1883
24672...... Aug. 11, 1904 ... 44 Russian, blued, 6.5"bbl, checkered wood grips, Japan
28501...... August 12, 1896
29035...... Sept. 4, 1893 ... 45 Schofield, blued 6.5" bbl, hard rubber grips, target sights, England
31779...... Aug. 7, 1899
35102...... Dec. 28, 1915 ... 44 Russian, 5"Bbl, TgtSites, Non-rebounding Hmr, Nickel.
35602.......Ltr pending ...... 44 Russian, blued, 6.5" bbl. target sights, cut for shoulder stock
New Model #3 Target
2001 ...... Mar. 30, 1893
2100 ...... Ltr Pending ..... 38-44
3384 ...... May 11, 1899
New Model #3 Frontier 44/40
52 .......... May 13, 1891
981 ........ Dec 11, 1893 .... 5"bbl, blued, hard rubber grips
Mike, you are right about hypothesis, details, etc. I'd love to see that info on the S&WCA site, but I noticed that it costs money. I guess I'm not a serious enough collector, otherwise, I'd have no problem with the membership fee (I am a member of the WACA). I just have one, single New Model #3 (photo below) and I'd like to get an original Schofield. I spend my days doing science, up to my eyeballs in aligned sequence data, writing software to mine that data, exploring the implications for protein folding, writing papers for science journals, etc. I come here for a break .... just to enjoy. I'm enjoying this thread (except for your comments that express, shall we say, a certain 'lack of enthusiasm' for this thread).
Here's what I'll say to you, from a serious Winchester collector to a S&W collector: When I see a new fellow who doesn't know a whole lot about old Winchesters enthusiastically discussing something that I've known about for a dog's age and that has been discussed long before the new guy ever came along, I don't ridicule him, tell him this has been discussed a thousand times already, talk down to him, and in general, treat him like a moron. Quite the contrary; I encourage him and contribute to his knowledge in a down-home kind of way. This weekend, I've invited a new Winchester collector to spend the weekend with me and my family. He's a new fellow who got taken bigtime by an experienced collector who didn't want him to know things like factory info on serial numbers, etc and sold him an altered gun for an impressive price. He's coming over this weekend to get an education in what to look for in original old Winchesters, how to reload for the obsolete calibers, do some shooting, and just have a good time talking about old Winchesters while enjoying good coffee and good food. I don't know you, and perhaps you come across in a pompous, know-it-all way that is not at all the way you really are, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Nevertheless, you really need to be more encouraging to new guys who may not know a whole lot and who enjoy simple things like the chart in this thread for example.
Now here's a photo of my entire antique S&W collection (it may be a very small collection, but I ain't proud
Now, does anyone have anymore data to update the chart with?
New Model #3
Serial #...Shipped............ Caliber & Type
2773 ...... Sept. 1, 1879
6561 ...... Aug. 9, 1881 .... 44 Russian, blued, 6.5" bbl, smooth wood grips
6740 ...... March 7, 1882
6763 ...... March 15, 1882
8823 ...... March 9, 1880 ... 44 Russian, 6" barrel, nickel
18099...... Nov. 11, 1883
24672...... Aug. 11, 1904 ... 44 Russian, blued, 6.5"bbl, checkered wood grips, Japan
28501...... August 12, 1896
29035...... Sept. 4, 1893 ... 45 Schofield, blued 6.5" bbl, hard rubber grips, target sights, England
31779...... Aug. 7, 1899
35102...... Dec. 28, 1915 ... 44 Russian, 5"Bbl, TgtSites, Non-rebounding Hmr, Nickel.
35602.......Ltr pending ...... 44 Russian, blued, 6.5" bbl. target sights, cut for shoulder stock
New Model #3 Target
2001 ...... Mar. 30, 1893
2100 ...... Ltr Pending ..... 38-44
3384 ...... May 11, 1899
New Model #3 Frontier 44/40
52 .......... May 13, 1891
981 ........ Dec 11, 1893 .... 5"bbl, blued, hard rubber grips
Buffalo Nichols
US Veteran
Kirk,
That is an impressive start to what can be a serious affliction LOL collecting old Smith & Wesson #3's. Long extractor, good finish and a not so common barrel length. Here are a few of mine First is a 5 inch Frontier Model 44-40
Second is a target model in 45 Schofield
Third is a 38-44 in niclel, ltr pending
Last of this bunch is in 44R it letters to 1881 and shipped with the smooth grips, only the second I've seen with the smoothies. Long extractor like yours
Enjoy and if you have any of this type you don't want let me know
That is an impressive start to what can be a serious affliction LOL collecting old Smith & Wesson #3's. Long extractor, good finish and a not so common barrel length. Here are a few of mine First is a 5 inch Frontier Model 44-40
Second is a target model in 45 Schofield
Third is a 38-44 in niclel, ltr pending
Last of this bunch is in 44R it letters to 1881 and shipped with the smooth grips, only the second I've seen with the smoothies. Long extractor like yours
Enjoy and if you have any of this type you don't want let me know
Very nice indeed! I may only have one gun, but I sure do enjoy looking at more. Judging from how much I'm thinking of spending for an original Schofield, I know what you are saying about the possiblity of this becoming a serious affliction.
Thank goodness my budget keeps a tight reign on me.
Buffalo Nichols
US Veteran
Nice group Gary. A question if I may, since I have Target Model #2100 a nickled 38-44, I am curious as to Target Model 2001, caliber and finish
Kirk
If I've discouraged you from thinking about serial number vs shipping
dates, then it was all worth it.
Regards, Mike Priwer
If I've discouraged you from thinking about serial number vs shipping
dates, then it was all worth it.
Regards, Mike Priwer
Not at all, Mike. I still find that stuff even more interesting than when I started the thread. What I'd really like to know, however, is the relationship between the serial number and the date the frame was serialized. For old Winchesters, the date the frame received its serial number was recorded in the polishing room and much of that data still exists today, awaiting publication. The warehouse recorded the shipping dates. I wonder if S&W had something equivalent and if the records for when the frame was serialized still exist?
glypnir
Member
I think it all depends on how many serial numbers/shipping dates we can get. Maybe we can figure out when they refilled the barrel with new frames.
Just because it's a semi-chaotic process doesn't mean it can't be studied with enough data.
But I think it would be most fun to have a really detailed database, taking advantage of cheap communication, data storage and digital cameras.
With these antiques, there should be much less concern about Big Brother seizing them, so why not have serial number information, owner information, if desired, pictures, detailed information on configuration, provenance, refinishing, whatever.
Mike always has such pristine examples, it would probably drive up their prices.
Or is the SWCA already doing something like this?
Just because it's a semi-chaotic process doesn't mean it can't be studied with enough data.
But I think it would be most fun to have a really detailed database, taking advantage of cheap communication, data storage and digital cameras.
With these antiques, there should be much less concern about Big Brother seizing them, so why not have serial number information, owner information, if desired, pictures, detailed information on configuration, provenance, refinishing, whatever.
Mike always has such pristine examples, it would probably drive up their prices.
Or is the SWCA already doing something like this?
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