Outlaw heros?

[wbraswell]

Movies replaced the dime novels. Many characters from history are viewed quite differently. The established government of the 1770s, didn't think too highly of men like John Hancock, Thomas Paine, and their seedy associates. They were rebels, and traitors. In Texas in the 1830s, the government cornered a band of armed miscreants, in a little mission around San Antonio, and couldn't get them to surrender. In the 1930s, during the depression, when the car bandits were in their hayday, record numbers of American citizens were members of the Communist party, and the American Bund. They thought that democracy, capitalism, and the American dream were done for. People are always blaming someone or some group for their misfortunes, and act like they are all for anyone standing against those who they blame.

 

[REM 3200]

Outlaw heros

Gotta' be Waylon and Willie and the boys.
Jessie and Kris too.

 

[rwsmith]

Just goes to show you.....

Movies replaced the dime novels. Many characters from history are viewed quite differently. The established government of the 1770s, didn't think too highly of men like John Hancock, Thomas Paine, and their seedy associates. They were rebels, and traitors. In Texas in the 1830s, the government cornered a band of armed miscreants, in a little mission around San Antonio, and couldn't get them to surrender. In the 1930s, during the depression, when the car bandits were in their hayday, record numbers of American citizens were members of the Communist party, and the American Bund. They thought that democracy, capitalism, and the American dream were done for. People are always blaming someone or some group for their misfortunes, and act like they are all for anyone standing against those who they blame.

Just goes to show you that your 'rebel' is my 'freedom fighter".

 

[mtgianni]

Many through out time feel they have been wronged or mis-used by those in a position of power. It is natural to feel a little better for themselves when they see someone benefiting at the expense of those in power. It isn't logical but it is real for many of them, especially the lower income ones.

 

[wbraswell]

rwsmith, you mean "our" rebels.

 

[the ringo kid]

No different than the glorification of pirates. Pirates for the most part were murderous thieves, yet people seem to admire them as if they had been rock stars.

One of the few ""good"" Pirates being:
Thorpe holding sword at Spanish Captain--played by: Gilbert Roland:

And who could NOT like these two:
Captain Thorpe

Captain Blood-who started off being a Doctor.
And:
The Crimson Pirate:

 

[Rastoff]

I'm more of a Scarlet Pimpernel fan myself:

 

[george minze]

I'm more of a Scarlet Pimpernel fan myself:

They seek him here, they seek him there, those Frenchie's seek him every where, is he in heaven or is he in hell? Not verbatim!!!!It was years ago....

 

[POPPER]

Even now

I was too young to put it all together back in the 50's but I saw a man tar and feathered for getting his 12 yr old step daughter pregnant, and several men that came up missing after bad dealings, mostly due to moonshine or card games. It's a different world today than when I grew up. And I don't think it is better. Some of the hero's of yesteryear will never be known, but I remember a few.

I've lived here in Tennessee for the past 25 yrs when I came here from Texas. And I can say while looking you straight in the eye there are places here on the Highland rim that you don't want to roam off on even today. One has a pen of wild domesticated hogs not seven miles from my door. You end up in there there is nothing left. It still goes on today here but only if you step foot where you don't belong. Otherwise they won't mess with you. Shiners and pot growers get a little testy if you step on their turf. It's like going back in time here in many ways. Popper

 

[federali]

Remember the 50s?

I grew up on the TV western, both on black and white TV and on the big screen. Yes, the screen writers engaged in revisionist history. Many lawmen such as Wyatt Earp, had lots of skeletons in the 40' semi (the closet would be too small).

Another thug, for which a building is named, is none other than J. Edgar Hoover, a blackmailer, power broker, manipulator and ego-maniac. He became so incensed with the publicity that Melvin Purvis received for taking down John Dillinger that he hounded the poor man and made his life so miserable that he ultimately committed suicide.

Outwardly, he hated gays and would fire them on the spot if he suspected an FBI agent was gay. Yet, there's plenty of evidence to suggest that he had a long term relationship with Clyde Tolson, the number 2 man in the FBI.

Incidentally, J. Edgar and his partner, Clyde, enjoyed a day at the races at Pimlico Racetrack, the day after JFK was assassinated.

 

[POPPER]

I grew up on the TV western, both on black and white TV and on the big screen. Yes, the screen writers engaged in revisionist history. Many lawmen such as Wyatt Earp, had lots of skeletons in the 40' semi (the closet would be too small).

Another thug, for which a building is named, is none other than J. Edgar Hoover, a blackmailer, power broker, manipulator and ego-maniac. He became so incensed with the publicity that Melvin Purvis received for taking down John Dillinger that he hounded the poor man and made his life so miserable that he ultimately committed suicide.

Outwardly, he hated gays and would fire them on the spot if he suspected an FBI agent was gay. Yet, there's plenty of evidence to suggest that he had a long term relationship with Clyde Tolson, the number 2 man in the FBI.

Incidentally, J. Edgar and his partner, Clyde, enjoyed a day at the races at Pimlico Racetrack, the day after JFK was assassinated.

We'll never know the half of what Hoover was involved in with his cronies' or however ever you spell it. Sad part to me is there were so many lawman that shot straight from the hip and were honest dedicated men to their profession. I've been fortunate to have had three in my family and several I became close friends with while in Texas. My hat is off to these guys and their dedication. It's a shame there are corrupt individuals in the mix as well. It's our job to seperate the wheat from the chaff and move on I reckon. Popper

 

[therevjay]

Great Grandma (who came from Arkansas) told me "The James boys" were NOT outlaws. They were Confederate resistance fighters!

 

[David harleyson]

I've lived here in Tennessee for the past 25 yrs when I came here from Texas. And I can say while looking you straight in the eye there are places here on the Highland rim that you don't want to roam off on even today. One has a pen of wild domesticated hogs not seven miles from my door. You end up in there there is nothing left. It still goes on today here but only if you step foot where you don't belong. Otherwise they won't mess with you. Shiners and pot growers get a little testy if you step on their turf. It's like going back in time here in many ways. Popper

I know where you are talking about Popper. I heard about some boys riding motercycles in the mountains and got separated. One of them happened to ride by an old cabin way out in nowhere. There was an old man and woman sitting on the porch as he rode by. The old man grabbed a shotgun and started blasting away. The old woman said"did you get him Pa? The old man said"I don't know if I killed him or not, but he sure turned that fellow loose he was carrying off.

 

[Road Rat]

Quote from POPPER: Most of my life I have read books, seen movies etc. of various outlaws and lawmen. Without hardly an exception they are always portrayed as heros and nice guys deep down on a mission. Unquote

These folks were only brought to the front of the line as likeable people through the Silver Screen of Hollyweird...........

Just about anything and everything put out on film was a make-believe story to sell tickets!!!

Of course Bonnie and Clyde were right in the thick of Hollywood making "talkies".............timing was everything!

 

[THE PILGRIM]

I grew up on the TV western, both on black and white TV and on the big screen. Yes, the screen writers engaged in revisionist history. Many lawmen such as Wyatt Earp, had lots of skeletons in the 40' semi (the closet would be too small).

Another thug, for which a building is named, is none other than J. Edgar Hoover, a blackmailer, power broker, manipulator and ego-maniac. He became so incensed with the publicity that Melvin Purvis received for taking down John Dillinger that he hounded the poor man and made his life so miserable that he ultimately committed suicide.

Outwardly, he hated gays and would fire them on the spot if he suspected an FBI agent was gay. Yet, there's plenty of evidence to suggest that he had a long term relationship with Clyde Tolson, the number 2 man in the FBI.

Incidentally, J. Edgar and his partner, Clyde, enjoyed a day at the races at Pimlico Racetrack, the day after JFK was assassinated.

Yes indeed! I knew a retired high ranking FBI man here in town. He was a deputy director and would talk about anything except J. Edgar's personal life.
And J. Edgar never liked the Kennedy's. And he apparently had so much on them they couldn't fire him,

 

[POPPER]

One last comment on these Hollywood hero outlaws if I may. I honestly don't recall where I heard this or if it is even factual though I wouldn't be surprised. Remember all the hype about Ringo in the Tombstone movie etc? Bas a-- gunfighter etc? According to what I have read about this character there probably isn't a concealed carry hand today that couldn't out shoot this guy as well as several others. From what I read about Ringo he was in fact no gun hand like they made him out to be in the movies but was in fact a back shooter and killed 2 or 3 people in saloons or whatever by shooting them while their backs were turned and he later eventually committed suicide and killed himself under an oak tree where he was found. He wasn't in any gunfight with Doc Holiday as the movie portrayed. Wish the heck I could remember where I found that info but I've slept since then. Maybe one of you guys know about this. Popper

 

[shouldazagged]

And J. Edgar never liked the Kennedy's. And he apparently had so much on them they couldn't fire him,

Not just them. He had private dossiers on an unbelievable number of people in positions of power. They were generally scared to death of him, which is why he was able to stay on long after the mandatory retirement age.

A fascinating book on the thugs and their opposition is Public Enemies: America's Greatest Crime Wave And The Birth Of The FBI, 1933-34, by Bryan Burrough. Based largely on huge numbers of FBI documents and field notes unsealed in recent years, it reads like a novel but is very well researched.

 

[Kinman]

My mom's side of family didn't have any respect for law enforcement types, especially the government whisky boys. They believed that it was nobody's business what they were doing and the agents never mounted a large enough posse to feel safe enough. One family story has it that a suspected revenue agent came up to one of my cousins and asked him "Ain't you Archie Kinman's nephew?" My cousin responded with "Yessir", the agent pulled a half dollar out of his pocket and said "I'll give you 50cents now to take me up to where your uncle works and another 50cents when we get back." My cousin said "Make it dollar right now mister." The agent said "Why are you being so stubborn?" My cousin said "Mister, If I take you up where my uncles working, you ain't comin back". Another time grandpa and his best friend were walking up to a still they had made underground and they heard a racket coming from down below, they went over to a hidden stash they had and grabbed a cyanide candle that used to be used to kill rats in bunkhouses and lit it and dumped it down the smoke stack, then they blocked the exit hatch and walked off, they came back the next day and there was a doggoned skunk dead a stinking up the works.

 

[rwsmith]

That.....

They seek him here, they seek him there, those Frenchie's seek him every where, is he in heaven or is he in hell? Not verbatim!!!!It was years ago....

That damned, el-u-sive Pimpernel.

 

[Donn]

Remember all the hype about Ringo in the Tombstone movie etc? was in fact a back shooter and killed 2 or 3 people in saloons or whatever by shooting them while their backs were turned and he later eventually committed suicide and killed himself under an oak tree where he was found. He wasn't in any gunfight with Doc Holiday as the movie portrayed. Wish the heck I could remember where I found that info but I've slept since then. Maybe one of you guys know about this. Popper

I expect the source you speak of is a book titled "And Die in the West" by Paula Mitchell Marks. Read it back when Tombstone and Wyatt Earp were playing every other day on HBO. I was interested in the real back story, not the tainted Stuart Lake account. Both movies showed Doc Holliday taking out Johnny Ringo, when it is suspected he actually committed suicide. Marks said had Ringo been around today, he probably would've been diagnosed as bi-polar. Later on, when Lake was interviewing him, Earp took credit for getting Ringo despite not being in Arizona when Ringo died. No one who was around in those days was alive to dispute him. Marks exposed another Earp myth, his never getting a scratch in any gun fight. Turns out Earp wore body armor, what he referred to as his steel shirt. That lead to a falling out between Earp and Doc Holliday during the Vendetta ride. Holliday took exception, felt Earp should take the same chances as everyone else.