Overloading 38sp?

[Jellybean]

There is so much misinformation in this thread that it’s getting hard to keep fiction from reality.

Threads like this give forums the bad reputation for finding information.

Bottom line, the modern .38 special case is shorter than the modern .357 magnum case and that is the only serious difference between the two.

It's little wonder that the older names here are hardly posting anymore.

That's what I was thinking.

You can load your modern .38 spl cases to the same specs as .357 magnum. However, unless you have a ballistics lab in your closet, there is no way for you to tell when you have reached that point. You will want to find the .38/44 data mentioned above and make sure you work up to it carefully. A lot of this data is older and was meant for older cases that had more empty space and this will cause the pressures to be a little higher than when originally tested.

The main concern, which was brought up above, is what if they found their way into a .38 spl? One of the advantages of reloading is that you don't have to follow SAAMIs suggested specifications and can load for a specific firearm if that is your wish. If there is a danger the ammo might end up in a firearm other than you intended, I would highly suggest you get some permanent markers and color the case heads red on any ammunition that is loaded to higher pressures than the headstamp dictates. And if you store them in boxes mark the boxes in red also and explain why they are different.

 

[Paul5388]

what if they found their way into a .38 spl?

That would be the same concern as any wildcat cartridge made from a different caliber. I have .38-55s I made out of .30-30 brass, which is just reverse engineering, but is there actually a problem with the practice? Only if you don't ever want to shoot a particular gun.

.38 Specials haven't seen anything close to .38/44 velocities in a long while! Most people think 1150 fps is actually .357 Mag velocities instead of 1500 fps that the mag was designed for. I use 10.0 gr of SR 4756 with a 125 gr bullet in .38 Special brass as a nightstand load, but you'll have to use Speer #8 to find it published. That load produces 1275 fps MV out of a 4" M66-2, which isn't much faster than a .38/44 with a 158 gr bullet.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Agreed. The 357 Magnum has not been a 1500 fps (@158 grns) for decades. My 38/44 reloads are right at 1175 fps for a 158 which matches the historic power levels of the ammo. Today that is a mid range 357 magnum.

When I go to the range and touch of full power (1550 FPS out of an 8 3/8" pre-27) 357 Magnum loads it has a loud guttural crack of power. It is quite noticeable over commercial 357 magnum ammo loaded to lower power levels. Same with my 38/44 loads this weekend. They had a crack that was noticeable.

Proper technique in packaging keeps the 38/44's out of 38 specials. Remember safety is between the ears and not built in the steel.

 

[Jellybean]

As someone stated in another thread at this time, it's not about velocity, it's about pressure. The relationship between the two isn't as cut and dried as many think.

Speer No. 8 is famous. It has higher charges for numerous powders than many other data sources. (sometimes) This, according to internet logic, is because it was the last manual before the industry was "lawyered up". But, it is interesting to note that the first edition of No. 8 is even "better" then subsequent printings of the same edition in that there are a number of loads that were reduced from the first printing to the second!

In other data sources, including later editions by Speer, the charges for SR-4756 are about half of those found in No. 8. What happened? Well, the most noticeable change that I could find is that No. 8 was the last edition that Speer used case head expansion to determine pressures, and that as of No. 9 they started using a pressure gun.

No. 8 is still famous with me, it shows that just because it's PRINTED IN A BOOK, doesn't mean it's safe. Especially if you're starting with a maximum load. And it also suggests that case head expansion isn't foolproof in determining pressures.

 

[rwsmith]

With a strong modern gun....

How about looking at 38+P loads before going straight to 357 MAG loading? That should give you a good idea of the pressure differences between the two cartridges.

Chris

If you approach it carefully with the right source of information you can get some really hot .38spec +P loadings safely.
But, like Chris says, there is a large gap between .38 spec and .357 performance that can't be bridged by conventional means.

What I call .38 special+P 'hunting loads' from some older manuals are pert near .357 velocities. I wouldn't use them except for something critical, like defense.

 

[bedbugbilly]

I'm fairly new to reloading but not to shooting - been doing it 0 years. The one thing that has been drilled into my head in terms of reloading is simply "don't develop bad and dangerous habits". To me, loading 357 loads in a 38 case is just that - dangerous and a bad habit. First, the 357 cases are heavier. Second, who knows other than you that they are 357 loads. Yes, 357 brass had been short . . but you can find it. Google used brass. To me, if you can load it a number of times, so what if you have to pay a little more? What you pay for the brass, which can be used a number of times plus your components is still a heck of a lot cheaper than buying factory loaded at the LGS. Even more so if you cast your own. Is the possibility of a potential problem or accident worth the price of a couple of extra cents you save by using 38 brass over what 357? You "can do" a lot of things . . . that doesn't make it safe.

 

[Paul5388]

It's usually good to refresh ones memory periodically. The Speer pressure equipment is pictured on page 83 in either edition of Speer #8 you choose to use. I have seen references to Bill Caldwell and the pressure gun Speer used in the 1972 Guns Digest. I think I have a copy of it in my loading room, but I will have to scan it again.

 

[125JHP]

Sound like a good excuse to buy a 38 Spl.

 

[rwsmith]

Or a good reason to find.....

Or a good reason to find a first edition Speer #8.

 

[blujax01]

Probably only of academic interest to most of us, but, according to a book "Pin Shooting" by Mitchell Ota, by Wolfe Publishing, 1991, Jerry Miculek did just what we are talking about.
He was using an 8-3/8 in M27 to clear a 5 pin table in 2.8 seconds.
He loaded the 200 gr bullets in 38 Special cases, presumably so he could use the crimping grove, and still be able to chamber the long cartridges in the N frame cylinder.
I think he uses .45 ACP in a M625 these days, to do the same.

Best,
Rick

Well I suppose if Smith and Wesson gave me all the free guns I wanted, I'd be more inclined to try such things myself!

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Propellant powders perform much differently depending on the cartridge case in which they are loaded. Case volume, loading densities, and unused interior volume can have unpredictable effects on pressures, including both absolute peak pressure and the pressure curve throughout the ignition and burning cycle.

Lacking the resources of a ballistics testing laboratory, I prefer to rely upon reputable published sources. Even then I tend to stay on the safe side, keeping my loads below maximums.

I've fired tens of thousands of handloaded .38 Specials and consider it to be an excellent choice for practice, competition, small game, and self-defense (many different combinations of projectile, powder, etc). When I require magnum performance I use a magnum handgun and ammunition.

I purchased my truck new in 2004. It now has about 160,000 miles on the odometer and remains in very good condition, delivering good gas mileage and regularly making it from one oil change to the next with no oil consumed. It is capable of going well over 100 MPH, but I have never driven it that fast. From a dead stop, if I punch the accelerator it will burn rubber and set me back in the seat, but I do not drive it that way. Consequently, I expect that truck to continue providing me with good service for several more years.

I treat my firearms much the same. My 6" Model 19 is going on 40 years old and has fired tens of thousands of rounds. It is still in perfect working condition and just as accurate as it was when new.

There is simply no reason to work any machine at its peak capacity all the time. When the smaller hammer won't do the job at hand get yourself a bigger hammer.

Best regards.

 

[Jellybean]

It's usually good to refresh ones memory periodically. The Speer pressure equipment is pictured on page 83 in either edition of Speer #8 you choose to use. I have seen references to Bill Caldwell and the pressure gun Speer used in the 1972 Guns Digest. I think I have a copy of it in my loading room, but I will have to scan it again.

Yup, that looks like the pressure equipment Speer obviously chose not to use in developing loads for No. 8. And the probable reasons, and techniques they did use, are explained starting on page 108. Of either edition.

Looking at a complimentary loading guide from Hodgdon/ IMR/Winchester, they have no .38 spl loads listed using SR4756. (In fact looking at any data source I have, other than No. 8, SR4756 doesn't look very appealing for .38 spl. loads at all.) But getting back to the afore mentioned guide, they do list a load using 7.8 grains of SR4756 under a 125 grain Hornady HTP bullet and loaded in .357 magnum brass. It shows a pressure of 30,600 psi. Imagine what a 125 grain bullet seated in a .38 case over 10 grains is going to deliver.

What is the point of consulting several sources to research and verify load data if you're just going to ignore the most blatant and obvious errors?

 

[Paul5388]

The article "Pressures and the Revolver" by Wm. M. Caldwell is on pages 24-28 in the 1973 Gun Digest. There is a picture of the K38 ( on page 26) that had been modified to include a transducer in its cylinder. Page 25 says this under the picture:

Fig. 1--Author using 357 Magnum pressure revolver. Pressures are carried by the coaxial cable from the revolver to the charge amplifier and oscilloscope in background.

I decided against a scan of the article. People in high places get excited when I post 40 year old articles.

 

[Jellybean]

I'm very familiar with that article Paul and have a copy of if on a CD somewhere. If you read the first few paragraphs very carefully the author tells you, in so many words, the modified revolvers were obtained after Speer no. 8 was printed.

 

[Paul5388]

Probably the biggest error I see is a failure to read page 109, because it is thought page 108 is definitive on the issue at hand.

The maximum loads listed are considered safe loads ONLY FOR THE SPECIFIC COMPONENTS AND RIFLES IN WHICH THEY WERE FIRED.

That is the targeted audience for pages 108-111, rifle shooters. The handgun section and its instructions are found on page 323 and following.

Since there seems to be doubts about Speer doing any pressure testing, here's a link to a cropped picture in Speer #5.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y121/Paul5388/Reloading/pressure66-67cropped_zps50ee807d.jpg

 

[rwsmith]

I did a little homework on +Ps.....

I did a little homework last night on .38+P compared with the .357. The FBI target velocity for their rounds is 980 fps. Lets just say 1000 fps to round things off. Using Speer #14. with a 125 gr. jacketed bullet in a .38 case, 6 grns of Unique gets 1082 fps. In a .357 case with the same bullet 12 grns of Acc #7 gets 1045 fps. Pretty much the same velocity with the same bullet.

Another example: With a 140 grn JHP using 7.1 grns of AA#5 in a .38 case, you can get 1003 fps while using the same bullet in a .357 case with 8.8 grns of HS-6 you get 1005 fps.


Conclusion: A hot .38+P round can equal a low end .357 magnum round.

So there isn't such a big gap between .38 and .357 as I thought, but the .357 picks up where the .38 leaves off.

 

[Jellybean]

Paul,
They tell you on page 108 that it's an intro for rifle data. And there is a separate chapter to intro handgun data, as you have indicated. And in that chapter they tell you that all the data in the handgun section was developed in their lab by "USING STANDARD HANDGUNS" . And there is no doubt they used pressure testing in the 8th edition, that is why I mentioned page 108, et al, because that is where they described the type of testing they did, and why. It just wasn't reliable. And by the wording in both intro sections they obviously had an attorney on their payroll then too.

Or a good reason to find a first edition Speer #8.

You don't need a book to tell you how to double a charge, guys have found many ways to do it for years. And many of them probably never read a book in their life.

I'm not trying to stop anyone from using Speer no. 8, it has a loyal following of devotees that cannot be swayed. But to anyone else, keep an open mind and do a little research.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

I like your summary. "Keep an open mind and do a little research"

To me this is Speer 8 in a nutshell. It is not a manual to just grab a load and make some up with. It is certainly not a manual to start with the max load in!

We tend to focus on the 4756 data in the 38 special but if you pull Speer 8 and look at it next to Speer 14 38 special+P (note I put the plus P data up since between 8 and 14 the pressure limits of the 38 Special was backed down a hair in 72 (if I remember correctly).

Unique, speer 14=5.2 max, speer 8=6.0 max
Bullseye speer 14=3.9 max, speer 8=3.5 max

If we take into account that Speer 14 is based on a swaged bullet then the numbers are not too far off.

I could also make the argument that the difference between these two cases is "lot to lot" variations since it is only a roughly 9% variation.

So I come back to your statement which I feel is very astute. "Keep an open mind and do a little research".

 

[ozo]

There is so much misinformation in this thread that it’s getting hard to keep fiction from reality.

Threads like this give forums the bad reputation for finding information.

Bottom line, the modern .38 special case is shorter than the modern .357 magnum case and that is the only serious difference between the two.

It's little wonder that the older names here are hardly posting anymore.

I am just glad to see that reloading has achieved the level of political correctness.

 

[Jellybean]

Peter, is your mind still open?

Too many people will grab two, or more, manuals and compare the data tables, just as you have done. There is a lot more to these manuals than just looking at the tables and if we take a look at this other information we'd know there is no use in comparing the information between Speer no. 8 and 14.

Read the "intro" sections mentioned above and understand what they mean. Speer no. 14's data conforms to SAAMI specifications for pressure, Speer no. 8's does not. The data in no. 8 was developed using standard firearms. Instead of using pressure testing equipment they used any of three methods of determing excess pressures, which they go over in the rifle intro section, and when they saw signs of excess pressures they backed the load off by 6%. They, and their attorneys, then give the disclaimer that the data is only good for the guns they were developed in... The fact that some loads from one manual are close to another is purely coincidental as they were not developed under the same conditions.

The techniques they used for no. 8 did not tell them just how much pressure there is and they are not always reliable. And this is best shown in the data for the .38 spl. loads using SR4756. .38 spl. brass is just as strong as .357 magnum brass. The primers they chose for the .38 spl. loads are the exact same ones they used for the .357 loads. The common techniques of looking for high pressure signs in primers and primer pockets, which they used, does not work under these circumstances. They would not see any pressure signs for the .38 spls. until they were well beyond .357 magnum pressures, and the 6% reduction would not be enough to correct it, because it would still be at .357 pressures. You can shoot .357 magnum loads through a good quality .38 without any catastrophic events, but that doesn't mean you are not doing damage to it. Those pressure limits are there for a reason, and if you don't understand what they are and how they work, stick with what is recommended for the caliber you are shooting.

So what if you just take two manuals and save yourself the trouble of reading anything but comparing the tables? Would that be safe? Not really. I can pull a second reloading manual off my shelf that would give you about the same data as Speer no. 8! That guarantees it's safe, right? No. If you read their book you will find that they used other sources data for their manual, including Speers.

Like I said, Keep an open mind and do a little research.