Our department purchased some +P+ .38 Special ammo that I shoot in my Model 19. One of our officers has and on occasion carries a Model 15 of 1969 vintage. I contacted the ammo manufacturer and was given a maximum pressure rating of 22, 800 PSI for this ammo. I then sent an email to S&W and asked if that pressure rating would be within the design limits of that revolver. I have not recieved a response yet and was wondering if anyone has any information on pressure limits for specific S&W models. I'm not angry or impatient and I understand S&W may not touch my question not knowing the condition of the firearm etc. But I would still like to know.
+P+ in Model 15
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RIKMAN
Member
The Model 19 is a .357 ... So I don't know of a pressure problem. It has been discussed that using light bullets like 125 gr in mag loads can crack the forcing cone at 6 o clock where it's flat & thinner. I've shot 158gr 357's in mine with no problems, however I don't do this regularly.
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RIKMAN
Member
Oops I see you said he carries a Model 15....
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squidsix
Member
Yeah, the +P+ thing is just silly. Before there was such a rating, loads that eclipse the performance of today's .38 special +P+ were the norm.
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
If that were my M15 I wouldn't want to fire any ammo over the 20,000 PSI mark. I think 22,800 PSI is a little high for a K frame .38 Special if it's used as a steady diet.
Like said, since the M19 is a .357 Magnum that ammo is no problem there...
Like said, since the M19 is a .357 Magnum that ammo is no problem there...
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In a M19 - NO problemo!
In a M15, I'd stick to the Buffalo Bore +P's which have much better ballistics and stopping power anyway, and are less likely to hurt your gun. Keep the +P+'s for collecting and conversational purposes or shoot them out of your M19 or better.
Chief38
In a M15, I'd stick to the Buffalo Bore +P's which have much better ballistics and stopping power anyway, and are less likely to hurt your gun. Keep the +P+'s for collecting and conversational purposes or shoot them out of your M19 or better.
Chief38
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Could you give the bullet weight and velocity, if you have the data from the company or chronographed?
mkk41
US Veteran
Does anyone have proof positive that a Model 19 uses different steels or heat treatment than a Model 15?
sigp220.45
US Veteran
I used to qualify with Federal +P+ .38 Hydra-Shoks in a Chief's Special. Other guys used Model 10s and Model 15s. We survived with all of our digits and orbs intact.
I don't know what exact ammo you're worried about, but once I learned our +P+ ammo launched that 147 grain bullet at about 925 fps, I ceased worrying my pretty head about it. The stuff is not that hot.
I don't know what exact ammo you're worried about, but once I learned our +P+ ammo launched that 147 grain bullet at about 925 fps, I ceased worrying my pretty head about it. The stuff is not that hot.
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If you look at the S&W website and check the manuals section, you'll note that model 15s are rated for use with .38 Special and .38 Special +P. You'll also note that +P+ ammunition should not be used. So don't hold your breath on a reply from S&W.
A little history here. +P+ .38 Special came about because a great many agencies wanted .357 Magnum performance without having to deal with the bad publicity/lawsuits that would result from shooting people with MAGNUM ammunition. It was intended only for use in .357 magnum weaponry and lengthy hold harmless agreements had to be signed by the purchasing agency just in case someone actually used it in a .38.
While +P+ won't generally 'blow your gun up', it will greatly accelerate wear & tear and reduce the service life of .38 Special revolvers. Sparing use probably wouldn't have that much effect. Frankly, where you put the bullet is a whole lot more important than a minor improvement in ballistics.
About the "the old loads were hotter" thing. Loads used to be clocked in much longer (and very carefully made) pressure barrels with no attempt at duplicating the effects of the barrel/cylinder gap. Also, since chronographs were rare and expensive, it wasn't real likely that too many people were going to realize that the factory specs were.....ah, optimistic when compared to results in the real world.
And yes, there is some load data out there that's been reduced since we got better ways to measure pressure. Some of the olde tyme handloaders standard was that if the primers didn't fall out when you opened the cylinder and/or brass didn't have to be driven out, pressures 'were acceptable'.
A little history here. +P+ .38 Special came about because a great many agencies wanted .357 Magnum performance without having to deal with the bad publicity/lawsuits that would result from shooting people with MAGNUM ammunition. It was intended only for use in .357 magnum weaponry and lengthy hold harmless agreements had to be signed by the purchasing agency just in case someone actually used it in a .38.
While +P+ won't generally 'blow your gun up', it will greatly accelerate wear & tear and reduce the service life of .38 Special revolvers. Sparing use probably wouldn't have that much effect. Frankly, where you put the bullet is a whole lot more important than a minor improvement in ballistics.
About the "the old loads were hotter" thing. Loads used to be clocked in much longer (and very carefully made) pressure barrels with no attempt at duplicating the effects of the barrel/cylinder gap. Also, since chronographs were rare and expensive, it wasn't real likely that too many people were going to realize that the factory specs were.....ah, optimistic when compared to results in the real world.
And yes, there is some load data out there that's been reduced since we got better ways to measure pressure. Some of the olde tyme handloaders standard was that if the primers didn't fall out when you opened the cylinder and/or brass didn't have to be driven out, pressures 'were acceptable'.
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Erich
Member
I used to shoot THE LOAD in a Model 15 - did very well with it.
158-gr Tennessee Valley Bullet LSWC hardcast, some SR 4756, a CCI standard primer and a firm roll crimp in a Winchester .38 case would get me 1230 fps, with an extreme spread of 6.39 and a standard deviation of 2.23 fps from the 4" tube. That's 531 FPE, for anyone wondering.
She was a pretty thing mainly used on the target range, but she had plenty of spirit when fed the warm stuff. Gun never batted an eye.
158-gr Tennessee Valley Bullet LSWC hardcast, some SR 4756, a CCI standard primer and a firm roll crimp in a Winchester .38 case would get me 1230 fps, with an extreme spread of 6.39 and a standard deviation of 2.23 fps from the 4" tube. That's 531 FPE, for anyone wondering.
She was a pretty thing mainly used on the target range, but she had plenty of spirit when fed the warm stuff. Gun never batted an eye.
Wrong question. Does anyone have proof positive that it doesn't?
Pointblank2U
US Veteran
I guess I'm conservative. I have a mint 15 that I don't shoot +Ps in.
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Current .38 Special +P ammo is no hotter than the standard ammo available when the K frames were manufactured. IMO any post WWII all Steel S&W revolver can safely shoot current +P ammo.
OFT II
US Veteran
Keep in mind that the OP is talking about +P+, not +P. I wouldn't worry about +P in a model 15 but I don't believe that I would use +P+.
I have a Model 64-3 downstairs in the safe that has at least 3500 rounds of +P+ rounds through it, most of them 110 grain, but a fair number of 147 grain as well. I carried it every day, and it shows no sign of wear or abuse. I also know that FBI agents would put at least 200 rounds a year through their revolver, many of them J-frames - never saw them have any problems either, and some of those guys carried those guns for many years after they went to the +P+. I would not hesitate to carry +P+ from any major manufacture in any modern K-frame, including a Model 15.
YMMV
YMMV
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
I addressed +P+ ammo in Post #5 but since everyone started talking about +P ammo I made the comments about that ammo in Post #15.
Texas Star
US Veteran
I can only say this: I was invited to shoot the M-686 when it was new, at a local sheriff's range. Two S&W factory reps were present to handle questions and to show the guns, which we fired.
I took them aside and asked candidly what was causing trouble with K-Magnums.
They were very candid. Some was use of hot 125 grain .357 ammo and a LOT was caused by Plus P Plus .38 ammo. One said that more guns were wrecked by it than by .357 loads.
Different agencies had it loaded to different specs, but I avoid it on the rare occasions that I see any.
I took them aside and asked candidly what was causing trouble with K-Magnums.
They were very candid. Some was use of hot 125 grain .357 ammo and a LOT was caused by Plus P Plus .38 ammo. One said that more guns were wrecked by it than by .357 loads.
Different agencies had it loaded to different specs, but I avoid it on the rare occasions that I see any.
sigp220.45
US Veteran
I'm only familiar with the 147 grain load, but I am always amazed at the reverence it receives.
It is just not that hot. The factory specs are 950 fps, and it usually does a little less than that.
LE: Ballistics Detail
It was the issue round for the FBI for quite a while. I know this is heresy, but my beloved employer is pretty anal about things. If it broke guns there would be a stack of paper six feet high, eight lawsuits, a congressional hearing, and a tell-all book by a disgruntled former agent with carpal tunnel syndrome.
Yet we blazed away with it for years, mostly in K and J frame guns, blissfully unaware of the near-nuclear explosions occurring in our lowest-bidder guns.
Maybe the 110 grain stuff lives up to the legend, but the Hydra-Shok is fairly tame.
(Of almost equal amusement is the fact if you load the same bullet at the same velocity in a 9mm case, it won't kill anything. It will barely exit the gun, and if it does, it will fall on your foot and roll away, leaving you at the mercy of the mythical 300 pound raging psycopath. It must be true, because Corporal Ed said so.)
It is just not that hot. The factory specs are 950 fps, and it usually does a little less than that.
LE: Ballistics Detail
It was the issue round for the FBI for quite a while. I know this is heresy, but my beloved employer is pretty anal about things. If it broke guns there would be a stack of paper six feet high, eight lawsuits, a congressional hearing, and a tell-all book by a disgruntled former agent with carpal tunnel syndrome.
Yet we blazed away with it for years, mostly in K and J frame guns, blissfully unaware of the near-nuclear explosions occurring in our lowest-bidder guns.
Maybe the 110 grain stuff lives up to the legend, but the Hydra-Shok is fairly tame.
(Of almost equal amusement is the fact if you load the same bullet at the same velocity in a 9mm case, it won't kill anything. It will barely exit the gun, and if it does, it will fall on your foot and roll away, leaving you at the mercy of the mythical 300 pound raging psycopath. It must be true, because Corporal Ed said so.)
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