+P Through a Model 12: THE TEST...is done!!!!

[j38]

I've kept reading this thread with interest. My Model 38 Airweight Bodyguard wants to know too. Thanks for the considerable effort that this experiment has entailed. Regards, Jerry

 

[GRIZZLYBEAR]

I am interested and have been keeping up with the test...as an owner of a couple Model 12s, I think you should keep the test going for another couple of thousand rounds. The model 12 can take it.

grizz

 

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello. I appreciate your efforts and hope that you will continue this procedure.

Best.

 

[will5a1]

I too have been reading every post regarding your test and look forward to more.

 

[compscotty]

Originally posted by handejector:
Did anyone check their library for this statement that S&W put out in the 70's? I know I read it numerous times in different sources. It MAY have appeared in Trade magazines for the gun industry also.

Originally posted by handejector:
An old Dude's recollection:
In the 70's, when +P ammo was a relatively new phenomenon, the question OFTEN arose as to what guns were safe with +P.
S&W put the word out at that time that "ANY S&W with a model number stamped in the frame WOULD BE SAFE with +P ammo".
IF anyone cares to search the "Reader's Questions" sections of magazines like "Shooting Times", "American Rifleman", and "Guns & Ammo", you will probably find that S&W quotation. Look in Skeeter's and Elmer's columns around 74-76 to start with, and the "Questions" in the "Amer Rifleman".
The "with a Model Number" statement would have precluded the ALUMINUM cylinder guns built in the early 50's.

I am very interested in this thread because i bought a model 12-1 from this guy...Hehehe

 

[Ron H.]

Sir, I'm starting to get the feeling that maybe I shouldn't have walked away from that nice little 2-inch 12-3 I saw a while back .... [sigh]

Semper Fi,

Ron H.

 

[38-44HD45]

Well, hell. Should have kept my 12-2 after all. Oh, well...

 

[sigp220.45]

Osprey - please keep up the good work. I've been following this thread with interest. My wife's main gun is 2" 12-2, and she mainly shoots wadcutters out of it due to my concerns for its durability.

 

[Xfuzz]

Heck, I'm looking for another 12 because of
this thread. See it through.

 

[okie john]

Osprey, thanks for your dedication and for all the money you've spent to conduct this test.

So has your M-12 become rickety yet?


Okie John

 

[Guest]

Brother

sprey,
I don't see any S&W or SuperVel ammo in your list:

All rounds are +P unless otherwise noted:

Winchester 110 gr JHP – 35
Federal 125 gr Nyclad HP – 36
Georgia Arms 158 gr LSWCHP – 101
Winchester 125 gr JHP – 200
Remington/UMC 125 gr JHP – 200
Speer/Lawman 158 gr TMJ – 300
------------------------------------
Total = 872

Any interest in trying some? I've got some Super Vel 110 grain JHP, they are not marked PlusP, but I can't remember seeing their ammo so marked. Also have some S&W 158 Gr Lead Semi Wadcutter, some early Federal NyClad 125 Grain Semi-Wadcutter PlusP and some Eldorado Starfire 125 grn Jacketed HP PlusP, not sure about that last stuff.
Let me know via email if you'd like to try some of this stuff and I can send it out.
Just trying to help (blow up a M12, that is...

)

 

[Lenshappy]

I will echo those of others...thanks and keep up the test!

 

[rozenbem]

originally posted by Osprey:
No cracks or suspicious abrasions were observed.

Osprey, are you referring to your gun or to your shooting wing?

I posted this on a different forum but thought it may be of interest here too. Back in 1974 Speer #9 manual published velocities of then current commercial ammunition including .38 special. Here is a link to the data.



Even brief comparison with modern factory ballistics suggests that cartridge we now call .38 spl +P would be referred to as .38 spl –P in 60's and early 70's… Is that by any chance the timeframe when your gun was built?

Interestingly, Speer #9 velocity for Remington 158 gr. LRN is nearly identical to .38 spl load published in Speer #5 (1961). That load contained 10.5 gr. 2400 under 160 gr. SWC slug… So, Osprey, to help offset the cost of ammo for your next test, I would be glad to provide 1000 rounds of regular .38 special… loaded to 1960's specs

Mike

 

[Stan]

Another appreciative M12 owner.

 

[stiab]

Even brief comparison with modern factory ballistics suggests that cartridge we now call .38 spl +P would be referred to as .38 spl –P in 60's and early 70's

I looked at the chart but I do not see what you are referring to. For example, it shows .38 Special Win 158 gr out of a 6" barrel at 761 fps, Federal same load same barrel 782 fps, Rem 125 JSP out of 6" at 1160 fps. Nothing so hot there.

Recent rounds I have tested for modern ammo included CCI 158 grain RNL at 792 fps from a 4" M15, Win 110 grain .38 Special JHP at 1163 fps from a M66 2.5", Win 125 grain +P at 989 fps from a 2" M60.

I know what you are saying, but am not so sure the chart and actual testing with current ammo supports it. But, I could be wrong.

 

[photoman]

Originally posted by rozenbem:
I posted this on a different forum but thought it may be of interest here too. Back in 1974 Speer #9 manual published velocities of then current commercial ammunition including .38 special.

Thanks! Looks like CorBon 110 JHP+P blows away that SuperVel.

 

[stiab]

If you have access to some of the reloading manuals from the late 60's to mid 70's and compare them with the latest manuals you'll see a marked reduction in max loads.

Yes, we are all aware of that, but reloading manuals do not address the comparison of older factory ammo with newer factory ammo. My acutal testing of old and newer ammo does not show the differences some claim.

 

[rozenbem]

stiab,

Thank you for sharing your data and sorry that I could not respond to you post sooner. I too may be wrong but I think some of the loads from Speer #9 table exceed modern factory ballistics.

Here are some examples:

Old .38 special Speer 125 gr. JHP clocked 1148 fps from 4" revolver. Fastest modern factory round I could find is .38 spl +P Remington 125 gr. Golden Sabre - 975 fps from 4" vented barrel.

Old 158 gr. Remington RNL - 1025 fps from 6" bbl. Modern +P 158 gr. RNL Remington Express - 890 fps from 4" vented barrel.

Again, I could be wrong here and would be interested to know if other data for old and modern factory rounds is available.

Mike

 

[photoman]

Originally posted by rozenbem:
Here are some examples:

Old .38 special Speer 125 gr. JHP clocked 1148 fps from 4" revolver. Fastest modern factory round I could find is .38 spl +P Remington 125 gr. Golden Sabre - 975 fps from 4" vented barrel.

CorBon 125 JHP+P runs 1125 or so out of a 4" barrel and 975 out of a 642.

 

[stiab]

Again, I could be wrong here and would be interested to know if other data for old and modern factory rounds is availabe

Mike, I am curious on this subject and as you can see from the pic below have accumulated a significant amout of older .38/357 ammo to test. I have a similar amount of more modern ammo to compare it against.

When the weather improves some I intend to spend a whole day at the outdoor range with my cheap-o chrongraph comparing old -vs- new from a 4" Model 28.

I don't have a predetermined agenda with this comparison, but the limited testing I have done so far does not indicate the older is a lot faster than the newer. I also have .45acp and 38 Super for comparison. I'll publish the results when more round have been fired!