Parts for a S&W 38 Short Safety Hammerless 4th model

Where are you located? You may find a knowledgeable forum member nearby who would be willing to help you. Also, early on, you said you had it disassembled and cleaned by a qualified gunsmith who ID'd the cylinder stop problem. Why couldn't he/she replace the CS?
 
He said he couldn't find one for the make and model of my gun. I feel sure he didn't look in places like this. He probably called the guy or guys he always calls and they said they didn't have it.
I'm in central Alabama.
 
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Just a short update. My local gunsmith said he contacted First Jack for a cylinder stop and he didn't have one for this gun.
Also, with the top broke open, when I pull the trigger you can see the cylinder stop moving up and down but it never clears the floor of the frame enough to make contact with the cylinder. Visually the end doesn't look worn, but I could be wrong. So, there seems to be something wrong with the cylinder stop (bent, worn, broken) or with another part (spring?) that pushes the cylinder stop up. I took the side plate off and can't really tell anything since I'm a newbie. I still want to pursue fixing it, but I'm not 100% sure a cylinder stop will fix it. I'll let you know if I get any further. tlay, let me know when you are back. Thanks everyone.
 
One possibility is that the stop could be bent. If you look at the schematic for a 32 Safety below, you will see a stop that part number 450 and it is very long and thin. The 32 and 38 Safety revolvers had similar stops in all models. I assume that your gunsmith did not disassemble the gun? When the spring pushes the stop up into the channel, it rests on the underside of the frame. If the thin arm is bent down, the stop will not rise to the proper level.

The stop moves so easily that even a weak spring should still push the stop up in place. If you push down on the stop, does it rebound or remain in place? Also, if you remove the stocks, you can see the stop spring (#454) pinned to the front of the butt-frame. You can see the spring and the back of the stop move if you push down on the stop. If the spring rebounds, the stop is bent. You can also take a small screwdriver and lightly lift the spring to see if it moves without taking any parts out. At rest, the stop should be about .060" high in the channel. Check these issues out and give us a reply.

Lastly, maybe Tom can clarify what actually moves the stop? Is it trigger or hammer actuated?
 

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  • 32 Safety 2nd Model Schematic1.jpg
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OK As we work through this, the gun may have several problems. LOL
Took the grips and side plate off.
As I played around with the trigger, the stop is at its high point when the trigger is fully pulled and it is then high enough to almost catch, but not quite. It will scrape the bottom of the cylinder. As soon as I release the trigger it falls back down to its "normal" low position.
I tried to push the stop down with a screwdriver and it wouldn't move at all when it was already down. With the trigger pulled and the stop "high" i could push it down and it would return to "up" when I released the trigger. Just not up enough to catch and hold. I'm assuming the stop is trigger driven because one I hear the hammer fall, the stop stays high as long as i keep the trigger pulled. Once I release the trigger it falls.
Then something else happened. The trigger froze up and as I played around with the trigger and the stop, 1/2 of a part fell out. LOL From the diagram you supplied it looks like the left end of part 468 (split spring). I don't know what happened to the other 1/2 or if it is still in there somewhere. Could the split spring be the whole issue, or just another problem to fix?
Thanks
 
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The split spring is the Achilles Heel in the Safety Hammerless. The other half is probably still in the revolver. This spring is pinned and pivots with the cylinder stop. As the hammer moves to the full cock position, a nib on the bottom of the hammer depresses the split spring and unlocks the cylinder. Upon firing, the nib slides between the ears of the split spring leaving the cylinder locked. Sadly, the split spring is almost impossible to find and very expensive to make. I suggest finding another beat-to-death, but working, revolver to use as an organ donor.
 
So, is that spring the likely reason the cylinder stop isn't working properly or are there likely two or more issues I have to solve?
Thanks
 
I don't know if that is all your issue. But, the good news is Jack First sells the split spring. I recommend getting the book Gunsmithing Guns of the Old West by David Chicoine even if you never plan to work on another old Smith. It's fun to read how they made these guns work. Remember, the first top breaks made after the tip ups had fully automatic spent hull ejection. That mechanism is very sophisticated even today.
 
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The split spring is anchored by a small pin to the cylinder stop and you can see the hole in the schematic. It assists the stop in the down position, so it was probably cracked and not fully performing its function.

I took apart one of my 38 Safeties to find how everything works. The split spring makes contact with the small knob on the bottom of the hammer (not shown on the schematic) that pushes down on the spring to drop the stop as you start the trigger pull. The small "ski jump" on the end of the split spring passes under the hammer knob and when clear as the hammer reaches full cock the stop pops back up.
 
Do you think this broken spring could keep the cylinder stop from rising up high enough to keep the cylinder from being locked by the cylinder stop?
 
Did anything change after half the spring dropped out? The split spring is there to push down against the flat cylinder stop spring at the rear of the cylinder stop. If it is not working, the stop should be in the raised (locked) position all the time, so back to the possibility that the stop is bent. The best bet is to get the spring from Jack First and disassemble the gun. That should allow you to test if the stop can rise fully or if it is part of the problem? Try to get a measurement of the height of the stop. It should be .060" or 1/16" high.
 
Thanks Gary. No nothing changed. My guess is it was already broke and happened to fall out when I took the grips and side panel off. Free spins when hand not on trigger and barely touches when trigger fully depressed. Maybe more of the broken spring is in there preventing the cylinder stop from working? Your suggestion to buy the spring is a good one since I know it is broke.
 
I am back in town. I sent you an email with my phone number. Please call me and we can work out the details. Since this was your Dads gun I won't charge you anything but parts to fix it.
 
I received the gun today. For info it is refinished. I will take it apart tomorrow and let you know what I find.
 
If after you do some more checking you end up needing a cylinder stop I should have one in my parts stuff. I tend to agree however that the stop should not be worn out . PM me if you need one and I will see what I have.

I can also send you a break down drawing for the gun if you need one.

Keith

If you have a cylinder stop for this gun please let me know, we now believe that is one thing it does need. Thanks
 
The cylinder stop in this model runs through the trigger and is actuated by a short stiff spring. It has been ground down and will not stop the cylinder when the trigger is a rest. When the trigger is pulled it will come out enough to stop the cylinder but it doesn't take much pressure to move it out of the stop. There is no split spring in this model so I don't know where those pieces came from. Some times people put them between the strain screw and main spring trying to stiffen it. The extractor does not work and only comes out part of the way, but that is an easy fix. I have a couple of cylinder stops but only one for a 38 but it is in no better shape. If anyone has one for a 38 safety hammerless and want to do some trading, let me know! I also have other parts I can trade. Even some hard to find firing pins!!
 
Well, Tlay did some amazing repair work and got this little revolver working again! It had a lot of problems but he found a way to get it working again. He test fired it yesterday! It hasn't fired a shot in 50 years until yesterday! And now when I open the safe and see this gun sitting there, I can hear my dad say "well done son". Thanks to all for the help, especially TLay.
 

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