PC 845 Limited: 2 variations or -THREE- ?!

[Sevens]

I did a thread-drift in a recent topic of discussion and I think it needs it's own conversation. In talking about an odd 4506 which appears to be a production gun with some enhancement (in the form of forward cocking serrations which I will abbreviate "FCS") another poster remarked how it looked just like the FCS that are present on the Performance Center 845 Limited, but for those who know them, just the shorter non-Lew Horton second run of the pistols in 1998.

These are easily identified as different from the original run of 845 as they have obvious FCS on the slide and "billboard" script denoting a "Model of 1998" on the left side of the slide.

Poster StakeOut adding this post and linked a picture:

Well, this photo made me awfully curious because just in this one look, I can see some obvious differences from what I thought that I knew. FCS present, looks like the PC logo is missing and the trigger is quite forward which hints at DA/SA operation rather than the SAO that we know of with the PC 845 Ltd and all the PC 5" Limited target guns. And the big whopper is that the hammer block non-ambi thumb safety is not black as it clearly is on both the 1995 and 1998 but rather silver/bead-blasted stainless.

StakeOut was kind enough to post another link and the site itself is kind of curious to me... best I can tell, it's a collection of formerly sold at auction guns, along with pictures and the sale price. Unless I have missed something (not so obvious) you cannot click your way to anything being offered for sale. Seems like some work to keep such an archive, but I really think it's pretty neat for enthusiasts such as ourselves.

But back to the point! When you follow the updated link that StakeOut posted at:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/redire...es.collectorsfirearms.com/search.php?page=318
...you have to scroll half way down a very long page but you are treated to three different 845 listings and I'll be a monkey's uncle! There are three unique versions of the PC 845 Limited and it appears that the short, second run of 1998 has two variations within it. (also for the record, the initial picture which spawned this discussion actually does have the PC logo in it, but due to angle and lighting... you can't see it but you can see it when you pull up the full page for this odd third variation)

MPCxxxx was the initial 1995 pistols and certainly IMO, these are the sharpest looking of the 845's. The SCSW3 hinted that 500 of these were produced but IIRC, forum poster BlueDot37 has shown us a factory letter which claims that only 435 were actually shipped. (please correct me here!) Those were either mostly or all Lew Horton guns.

The "typical" or prevalent second run of 1998 guns were supposedly limited to just 150 examples and these have the SDNxxxx serial number series... or so I thought. Now, given the photos at the linked auction archive, I see we have a PCZxxxx series.

And wow if I wasn't already confused enough... the typical second series that I thought I knew also happens to be showing the PCZxxxx series on that archive even though the second series 845 that I own clearly runs the SDNxxxx prefix.

Easiest answer applies and always seems to be correct: with S&W, anything is possible and "the first rule is, there ARE NO RULES!"

Please post on this subject and continue the digging for precious information! The true Performance Center was lightning in a bottle.


NOTE: There is the Wischo European "Target Champion" pistols but I suppose I haven't mentioned them, they almost cease to exist in North America (though yes, a couple apparently do... boy I would like to hear the back story...)

 

[skjos]

PCZxxxx serial numbers are spread out through the Performance Center semi-auto line. I believe this serial number is reserved primarily for pre-production units or extremely short runs of a particular variation.

Where I have seen them:
A few 945's
945-40
3953 "Performance Center Classic Series"
4566 CQB's
4506 LAPD Test Unit
PC 4566 with rail

Perhaps this 845 was a one-off and S&W gave it a PCZ serial number, or it was a really short run outside the two primary production runs.

 

[Sevens]

Great info and furthers the mystique. I would feel like I had a better idea of what we were seeing if the "odd" variation 845 in the shown picture were the pistol that had the PCZxxxx serial number but alas... at the auction archive, it is the second run 845 that appears absolutely typical but wearing the PCZxxxx while the oddball 845 that might be DA/SA and has the stainless thumb safety is wearing the "known" second run SDNxxxx serial number.

The mystery continues.

 

[skjos]

I looked into the "archives.collectorsfirearms.com" website and found the description for the mysterious 845:

"Smith & Wesson 845 .45 ACP caliber pistol. Scarce Performance Center Target Model, limited edition of 150. This is a factory demo model."

The PCZ0181 may be a one-off demo 845 prior to the official 1998 run:

Here is a pic of the SDN0098 845:

And the MPC0098 845:

 

[Sevens]

Curious that the second run pistol with the odd color thumb safety and what appears to be the DA/SA trigger is the one with the more typical/expected serial number.

 

[skjos]

A lot of parts can be swapped to provide an alternate look, but the SA/DA trigger has me puzzled.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

845 Limited

MPCxxxx was the initial 1995 pistols and certainly IMO, these are the sharpest looking of the 845's. The SCSW3 hinted that 500 of these were produced but IIRC, forum poster BlueDot37 has shown us a factory letter which claims that only 435 were actually shipped. (please correct me here!) Those were either mostly or all Lew Horton guns.

That's correct. Per the letter Lew Horton sent me they had 435 delivered to them.

I guess only S&W knows if any others were made but not delivered to Lew Horton?

.

.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

In looking at the (3) pictures skjos posted, along side each other, I think the trigger on SDN0098 is the same trigger as on the other (all) 845s. It looks different because it's pivoted forward more than the usual position.

If you notice, the trigger's (lowest) point is more forward. The upper portion of the trigger (the forward flat edge) is not easily visible on the SDN0098 but is on the other two. Also, the angled rear edge on the upper portion of the trigger is easily visible (because it's pivoted forward) on the SDN0098 but not on the two others as they are in the (normal) rearward position for 845s.

It's probably not a DA/SA trigger, just the SA trigger that's in a modified (rotated clockwise) position?

.

 

[Sevens]

That's correct. Per the letter Lew Horton sent me they had 435 delivered to them.

I guess only S&W knows if any others were made but not delivered to Lew Horton?

Wow, I can say that I never actually thought about it that way, and it further blurs the lines.

I can't help but think what an amazing reference book could be written on the subject of simply the Performance Center under Mr. Liebenberg. I know that many of us went half goofy along the process of the fantastic Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson, 4th Edition (...and you, BLUDOT37 even got his 845 pictured! ) but I can't help but think the world just begs for a book just like the SCSW, but with all the answers to the amazing Performance Center. As fantastic as the 4th SCSW is (and all of the editions of that book...), the details on PC guns is far beyond "lacking" in it. There are -far- more answers in the pages of these forums and you are left wondering just how many questions are wholly unanswered.

And typically when gun aficionados go off the deep end wondering and dwelling on mysterious production numbers and nuances... we are discussing hundred year old guns and old dusty file cabinets (or memories of dusty files cabinets that were lost in a factory fire or left out in the rain next to the Peacemaker equipment behind an old building on the East coast) but in this case... these beauties were built from 1990 or so until around 2010?! It seems ludicrous that a solid, dependable reference doesn't exist.

I dream about this. I honestly do.

 

[THE ROLLING STONES]

Here is my 845 Target Champion.

 

[vigil617]

Here is my 845 Target Champion.

Oh my gosh, The Rolling Stones does it again!

Those Wischo (a German gun distributor, for those who might not know) guns are an interesting subject in themselves, with several different models in addition to the 845, and the ones I've seen all starting with the prefix letter "W" as this one does.

Some rare birds here!

What a great find one of the MPC 845s would be! Personally, I've never warmed to the huge-billboard Model of 1988 ones, just for aesthetic reasons, but I do hope to own an 845 of any stripe someday.

Great thread, Sevens.

 

[18DAI]

I was told several years ago by a Performance Center gunsmith that the PCZ serial prefix is what was used for prototypes and "one off" examples.

My PC 45CQB Prototype has the PCZ serial prefix. I was told that the pistol before it and after it, in serial sequence, were both prototype 945 models.

If that 845 is indeed DA/SA, I suspect that it too is a prototype model or like my PC 45CQB a "one of one" piece. Regards 18DAI