PDW's

[wood714]

I think H&K (when they were in Chantilly) marketed the MP5K w/ side folding stock as a PDW back in the 1980's IIRC. Long time ago. Joe

*edit* I was thinking about the semi auto versions.

I always thought the HK SP5K wasn't available in the US till 2016. As far as I know the SP5 wasn't around until around 2019.

Iconic HK SP5K Pistol Comes to the USA - HK USA

Columbus, Georgia —Heckler & Koch will introduce the new SP5K pistol at the 2016 NRA Annual Meeting and Exposition in Louisville, Kentucky. A semi-automatic pistol based on the MP5K, the all-new 9 mm SP5K was developed by Heckler & Koch as a sporting pistol that matches the look and feel of…

hk-usa.com

 

[JohnRippert]

Of the two I own I prefer the AR9 pistol to the blowback folding pistol. They both weigh over six pounds but that weight makes it more stable and quicker on followup shots. For around the house I would much rather grab one of these than my nightstand Glock clone. The folder with a supressor would make a nice little package even with the brace extended.

 

[erikpolcrack]

A couple of years back I built an effective PDW on the cheap. It is a short-barrelled .350 Legend AR-15-type upper on a pistol brace lower. It's long enough to legally sport a front vertical hand grip. I based it on some popular ones I'd seen in .300 Blackout. I went with .350 because it outperforms .300 in a short barrel. Not the least bit interested in a silencer, so I had no use for a .300 version.

 

[DRYHEAT]

5.56 PDW in a $8.95 box from Home Depot

 

[RebCop]

The PDW is a gun fighting tool that allows more accuracy than what is gotten from a handgun. The .30 carbine is I believe the best because the ballistics are better and it's still very handy.

 

[M1A4ME]

Not a bad thing to have a pistol and carbine that use the same ammo. A PDW may not be a "carbine" but the idea is similar. If you have both and the use the same magazines that's even better.

If you live in an area where you can't see hundreds of yards a PDW/pistol caliber carbine isn't a bad thing at all. You may not want the issues you could have with a rifle power cartridge (over penetration, bullets traveling long distances when/if you miss the intended target).

Have said all that, both mine are AR framed style that use the Colt style magazines. Same caliber as my 9MM handgun but not with the benefits of using the same magazines.

They do have the same benefits of using a lot of the same parts in the lower receiver and having the same manual of arms as my AR15 (.223/5.56) carbines/rifles.

I almost never shoot mine. I should, I just don't.

 

[PHS327]

PDW = Personal Defense Weapon. I guess it is a new term.

PDW stands for Pete David Weber, one of the best bowlers of all time. I don't care what the rest of you say.

 

[Navy vet]

I have a G19 that I carry either on myself (IWB) or in vehicle in a IWB mounted to the drivers side of the console. I also have a S&W M&P 9mm FPC I keep next to me on the floor while I sleep. My wife has access to a G44 on her side of the bed. I know what you are thinking, a 22LR for PDW? Since the G44 is built to look like the G19. Literally you can only tell the difference if you compare the size of the barrels. Well, if she is home alone and we have a home intruder, do you think he/she (lets not be sexist haha) is going to wonder .... Hmmmm is that a 22LR or 9mm? No! It is more of a deterrent than anything. But if they were to continue, I am confident she'll put one between the eyes. She shoots the G44 once a week whether she wants to or not. I insist she has muscle memory and to be honest she is a better shot than I am! I just ordered a G43x MOS, I will be using it for my EDC.

 

[Terry G]

Just ordered a Springfield Armory KUNA, it will be at the Dealer on Monday for pick up. No waiting here. Do I need one? Of course not. What's that got to do with it? As for four legged PDW my Wife and Son got this one for me as a Birthday Present.

 

[03hemi]

I see all this hubub about PDW's. How many actually own one of these? To me a PDW is whatever firearm is within reach when and if I need one.

I have one or two.

 

[Brian Parrish]

As a civilian / commercial term it goes back to at least 2004 and the marketing of the ACS HEZI SM-1.

As a military term it goes back a lot farther and the M-1 carbine was functionally a "PDW" given how it was issued and employed.

The Israelis required their personnel to carry a personal defense weapon and as such it applied to reasonably small and portable weapons like the Uzi, MP5, Colt 9mm carbines and the shorter M16 variants like the XM-177.

Today, militarily speaking a "modern" PDW is by definition a "compact automatic weapon that can defeat enemy body armor, can be used conveniently by non-combatant and support troops and as a close quarters battle weapon for special operations and counter-terrorist organizations." In effect, as body armor has become much more prevalent they modified the term to address the need to defeat at least soft body armor.

That revision in the 1980s was the basis for the 5.7x28mm round and weapons like the FN P90, among other developments.

But in an armed citizen, home defense context where body armor is not normally a factor the old definition still works just fine.

So...no. It's not a new term at all. Even for civilian marketing purposes it still over 20 years old.

And its a lot smarter to be using a term like "personal defense weapon" than it is to use "assault rifle", "military style rifle", "military grade rifle" or "mil-spec rifle".

----

As a home dense concept an AP5 or similar firearm makes a great deal of sense. An AP5 SBR for example is short, handles well, is very reliable, is easy to suppress, and looks intimidating to a potential home invader.

It's also in line with the PDW concept in that its easy to use an easy to shoot accurately by persons with limited training.

I'm not really seeing a downside.

In original Krav Maga, as practiced by average civilians on the streets of Tel Aviv, and taught by its founder Imi Sde-Or (Lichtenfeld) an important concept is improvised weapons. Once I learned the "short stick" and its associated techniques, I was able to see all the things around me that I might use as a short stick. My heart beats as one with another comment here saying "whatever I have" or "anything is a weapon", but I want to clarify the concept. You don't just pick up something and then try to improvise your self defense, rather you learn effective self defense techniques and pick up something, a tool available which will match the techniques.

I did not learn "store front dojo" Krav Maga and I don't know much about it. My oldest daughter did however and got some fine training. I suspect that the complaints against it, that it is not "real Krav", are hyperbole.

The weapons you describe are often seen slung on the backs of citizens over there. I intend to use your definition here. It is useful to describe the role of these weapons, whether SBR, PCC, or carbine. Correct me please, we would not use the term PDW for a sidearm.

Kind Regards!
BrianD

 

[WCCPHD]

I have several. Like my Seecamp .32 and American Express Card, I "Don't leave home without it."

 

[BAM-BAM]

Beretta CX-4s w/ 20/30rd Factory/Mec-Gar mags , small red dot and light; that pair well with my Beretta 92 Centurions.

 

[GerSan69]

I have a couple of AR-based 5.56 and 300 BLK oversized "pistols" that I built up from lowers I picked up in Black Friday deals a few years ago. I also have a pair of 20 ga. "firearms", one of which sits behind the bedroom door hanging on one of those padded "Y" hooks they make for hanging up tools, etc. I prefer the 20 because they're easier to shoot, an can even be fired one-handed if needed. They're all a lot lighter to carry in groups to the range, too.

 

[Lt.Donn]

I believe, for us average civilians, and especially old geezers like me, the Best PDW is whatever platform I can get my hands on when unavoidable hostilities commence...but YMMV

 

[rockquarry]

I believe, for us average civilians, and especially old geezers like me, the Best PDW is whatever platform I can get my hands on when unavoidable hostilities commence...but YMMV

Yes. As I think about it, the "PDW" term reeks a bit of Internet gunfighting theory, but some folks are really attached to the latest acronyms.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

When Churchill went down to South Africa, he carried a Mauser Broomhandle.
I wonder what he would carry in 2025?

 

[HardToHandle]

Yes. As I think about it, the "PDW" term wreaks a bit of Internet gunfighting theory, but some folks are really attached to the latest acronyms.

The term personal defence weapon likely proceeded from the early 1970s U.S. Air Force program that produced the Colt .221 IMP (Individual Multi-Purpose weapon) and Colt SCAMP (Small Caliber Machine Pistol) prototypes. That multi-year programs were focused on producing handheld, low weight firearms with more capability than a pistol. During the Nixon presidency.

I have been familiar with PDW terminology since the Heckler & Koch company used it as part of the marketing of their MP5 PDW variant, which occurred in the late 1980s. My understanding is that 9mm PDW was a product request from the U.S. Army 160th Aviation Regiment, Night Stalkers. The Night Stalkers were using the PDWs around the time of Gothic Serpent, Black Hawk Down.

MP5K-PDW - HK USA

The MP5K-PDW (Personal Defense Weapon) is a compact and powerful arm. While comparable in performance to full size MP5s, the small size and light weight of the MP5K-PDW make this weapon the ideal choice where a rifle or full-sized submachine gun is unmanageable and a handgun is a poor compromise.

hk-usa.com

That all means the PDW concept is just not quite old enough for Social Security, but near able to retire in most government pension systems. Roughly the age of 1-800 numbers and a lot older than the American Vice President.

 

[rockquarry]

The term personal defence weapon likely proceeded from the early 1970s U.S. Air Force program that produced the Colt .221 IMP (Individual Multi-Purpose weapon) and Colt SCAMP (Small Caliber Machine Pistol) prototypes. That multi-year programs were focused on producing handheld, low weight firearms with more capability than a pistol. During the Nixon presidency.

I have been familiar with PDW terminology since the Heckler & Koch company used it as part of the marketing of their MP5 PDW variant, which occurred in the late 1980s. My understanding is that 9mm PDW was a product request from the U.S. Army 160th Aviation Regiment, Night Stalkers. The Night Stalkers were using the PDWs around the time of Gothic Serpent, Black Hawk Down.

MP5K-PDW - HK USA

The MP5K-PDW (Personal Defense Weapon) is a compact and powerful arm. While comparable in performance to full size MP5s, the small size and light weight of the MP5K-PDW make this weapon the ideal choice where a rifle or full-sized submachine gun is unmanageable and a handgun is a poor compromise.

hk-usa.com

That all means the PDW concept is just not quite old enough for Social Security, but near able to retire in most government pension systems. Roughly the age of 1-800 numbers and a lot older than the American Vice President.

That may be but was the term in common usage then as it apparently is now? We seem to have more of an acronym-oriented bunch now, but I guess it doesn't matter anyway. Night Stalkers, Gothic Serpent, Black Hawk Down? I don't need to know...

 

[HardToHandle]

That may be but was the term in common usage then as it apparently is now? We seem to have more of an acronym-oriented bunch now, but I guess it doesn't matter anyway. Night Stalkers, Gothic Serpent, Black Hawk Down? I don't need to know...

Yes.
Common terminology then. Common terminology now.
The use of acronyms is a manner to communicate often complex, multi-faceted concepts across learned audiences.

On the PDW topic, there's a well-known Swiss manufacturer that has numerous variations on the PDW theme - Brugger & Thomet. B&T even was adopted six years ago by the U.S. Army, for get this, for the Sub Compact Weapon (SCW) competition.
Might be of interest: https://bt-usa.com/firearms/pdw/

 

[sandspur6]

I have several pairs that would serve the purpose off PDW well.
A Brigade BM-9 that shares mags with my Glock 19 and 17.
A vintage Marlin Camp Carbine that shares mags with my 3rd Gen Smiths.
A Kel-Tec 2000 that shares mags with my Glock 22.
I always have one or another of these pairs with me when I travel.

 

[inspcalahan]

Several others nailed it - sure you could call most anything a PDW but, the term used today originated from the 1980's marketing by H&K for the MP5K. Yes, I know many older weapons were modified for a PDW role, or even just thought of as such due to the lesser calibers than most fighting rifles, however the term PDW belongs solely to the MP5K.


The MP5 with the 8.8" barrels were the industry standard for the 9mm primary sub machine-gun for tactical units. After the assassination attempt on President Reagan where Uzi's reigned supreme for the USSS, and a few other world events, the demand for a more concealable sub gun and you got the 4.5" (sometimes an inch longer for various models) MP5K, fitting in briefcases, under suit coats, alongside vehicle seats. They were never meant to have a stock, even though some did end up that way. They carried more ammo capacity than a pistol, ran like a raped ape on full auto and did the job at personal contact range. They were never intended for busting bad guys at 100 yards. They were for get off me, get off me know and get the F off smartly.
The PDW marketing took over and here we are. I've still got my nylon Eagle shoulder holster with offside mag pouch for one around here somewhere.

Here's Princess Diana giving one a little workout..

 

[Law-dog]

I have a G19 that I carry either on myself (IWB) or in vehicle in a IWB mounted to the drivers side of the console. I also have a S&W M&P 9mm FPC I keep next to me on the floor while I sleep. My wife has access to a G44 on her side of the bed. I know what you are thinking, a 22LR for PDW? Since the G44 is built to look like the G19. Literally you can only tell the difference if you compare the size of the barrels. Well, if she is home alone and we have a home intruder, do you think he/she (lets not be sexist haha) is going to wonder .... Hmmmm is that a 22LR or 9mm? No! It is more of a deterrent than anything. But if they were to continue, I am confident she'll put one between the eyes. She shoots the G44 once a week whether she wants to or not. I insist she has muscle memory and to be honest she is a better shot than I am! I just ordered a G43x MOS, I will be using it for my EDC.

I have a Glock 44 and carried a Glock 19 since 1990. I have zero doubt your lady could rack off 10 rounds and solve any problem at home. I have the 16 round after market magazines for mine and load it with Stingers. 17 rounds of that is nothing to ignore.

 

[BE Mike]

These little long guns (LLG's)are perfect for anyone who has never learned the skills to shoot a handgun accurately.

 

[Beewine]

I am calling this the "Cowboy Combo". Your pistol and Longarm share the common ammo etc. Logistics win and as long as you have one round left you are not out of luck. Current "Modern Combo" S&W FPC 9mm and M&P pistol with 17 round 9mm mag. Pistol is any M&P that has the standard 17rnd and FPC has a 23rnd magazine that the pistol can use. Rare in a urban environment will a shot over 150M be required. The FPC and M&P combo makes this a perfect combo. Before this showed up I was using a lever action .38/.357 and .357 pistol for my "Things going to total hell kit". Everyone uses the 9mm, it is about as exclusive as a thunderstorm.

 

[Phenix]

Looks like some shooters just love the PDW concept. To me, these PDWs appear to be SMG wannabes. I agree with AJ.

To me, all of the military-type PDW carbines I have seen look like they have the handling qualities and visual appeal of a bumper jack.

 

[Capt29]

My PDW is a Ruger 9MM Charger with a nice brace, a bunch of Glock mags, muzzle deflector. and a binary trigger. Its go along cousin is the new Ruger RXM (Glock 19 size) that also uses Glock mags, actuually a better Glock IMHO. Muzzle deflector? It is a flash projector, pushing all gases and flashes forward. If I am shooting at someone, I want them to see it and hear it, it is disconcerting. Know it for a fact.
I will post a photo when I figfure out how....

 

[03hemi]

Speaking of PDW's...
I asked at work the other day what was the worst thing they've witnessed on our indoor range?
A cops son, in the police academy, at the time, was shooting his AR pistol and held his finger in front of the muzzle device, pistol won.
All on video, but he claimed he got it caught in the bolt carrier while charging it right before he passed out. Mkay, if you say so, at least he's a fast thinker they said?

 

[BB57]

I am calling this the "Cowboy Combo". Your pistol and Longarm share the common ammo etc. Logistics win and as long as you have one round left you are not out of luck. Current "Modern Combo" S&W FPC 9mm and M&P pistol with 17 round 9mm mag. Pistol is any M&P that has the standard 17rnd and FPC has a 23rnd magazine that the pistol can use. Rare in a urban environment will a shot over 150M be required. The FPC and M&P combo makes this a perfect combo. Before this showed up I was using a lever action .38/.357 and .357 pistol for my "Things going to total hell kit". Everyone uses the 9mm, it is about as exclusive as a thunderstorm.

There is a lot to be said for that. I put a fair amount of effort into developing a load for my AP5 using a readily available and reasonably priced bullet. I wanted a load that would expand reliably and give good penetration (14" to 18") in 10 percent ballistic gel, in the AP5 but also in the shorter 3" and 4" handguns I may be carrying.

I also focused on using a powder that would not waste the long barrel and get significantly better than 4"-5" duty handgun velocity. That required accepting some slightly deeper penetration in 3" and 4" barrels.

---

This particular load with a Sig 124 gr V-Crown and HS-6 did well across a velocity range of 1015 fps to 1350 fps. Expansion is reliable and goes from not bad to good from 1015 fps to 1120 fps and was exceptional in the AP5 at 1350 fps. The side benefit is that with the AP5 at 120 yards I still have 1015 fps remaining and acceptable terminal performance.

There were some spectacular failures with some of the candidates. The very inexpensive X-DEF for example expanded well at around 1050 fps with just over 18" penetration.

However another 70 fps produced spectacular expansion but caused it to under penetrate. Realistically, it's a good performing hollow point within a very narrow velocity range right around 1075 fps. Hollow points like that are why gel testing a specific load in a specific handgun matters.

In the AP5 at around 1350 fps, it didn't expand it fragmented and penetrated about 5".

 

[BB57]

Speaking of PDW's.....
I asked at work the other day what was the worst thing they've witnessed on our indoor range?
A cops son, in the police academy, at the time, was shooting his AR pistol and held his finger in front of the muzzle device, pistol won.
All on video, but he claimed he got it caught in the bolt carrier while charging it right before he passed out. Mkay, if you say so, at least he's a fast thinker they said?

There's a reason I will only go so short on an AR-15 pistol, or SBR for that matter. Besides the excessive muzzle blast and loss of velocity, even with a hand stop it's putting your hand a bit too close to the muzzle, for my tastes.

The trend some folks display toward shooting an AR carbine or rifle with their arm extended out along the forearm just increases the risk when someone picks up an AR-15 pistol with a really short barrel and tries to the do the same thing.

Someone showed Princess Di with an MP5K above and its worth pointing out they incorporated both a vertical handgrip and a hand stop for a reason. That's so it won't screw up your manicure.

Like any MP5 pistol, the sling is designed and adjusted so that the shooter presses out with both hands against the sling to stabilize the pistol for greater control and accuracy. it gives you about 70-80% of the benefit you get with a stock.