Pepper spray vs bullet. Bullet wins. Update: Charges dropped.

sigp220.45

sigp220.45

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This happened yesterday in Denver. Competing rallies downtown, Patriot Somethings vs Communist somethings. Guy in Black Guns Matter shirt gets in a yakkety match with a Pinkerton security guard hired to escort a TV news crew. Shirt guy sprays Pinkerton guy with bear spray, Pinkerton guy shoots shirt guy dead. Pinkerton guy charged with Murder in the first.

When will this madness end?

Fatal Shooting in Denver Amid Dueling Protests, Police Say - The New York Times
 

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Michelle Malkin's twitter page has dissected multiple videos and pictures of the shooting. Her take on it there was an argument, security guard with ties to Antifa drew his gun, as he was raising it the other guy lets loose with a volley of bear repellent then gets shot in the face.

There has been at least three different spins by the cops and the local news agency that hired the bodyguard. It will be interesting to see what happens and what the real story is. Right now I think Michelle Malkin knows more about it than the cops are admitting to.
 
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With so many videos of the incident, the court case should be fairly straight forward.
 
Rudi said:
With so many videos of the incident, the court case should be fairly straight forward.
Click to expand...

Unless there's audio with the video, I had been thinking the video wouldn't play that big a role. There's no question that there was a confrontation and the security guard shot the guy with pepper spray.

Won't everything for security guy hinge on whether he can articulate why it was reasonable for him to use deadly force?
 
A Pinkerton shooting someone at a demonstration, how 19th century.

That incident was a collection of bad decisions by all involved. It seems to be a case of when egos collide. The video is like a perverse display of the force spectrum, I'll probably see it in a ConEd class next year. They went from verbal to hands on to less than lethal and lethal in no time.

I don't know where all this is headed, but I don't think it's anyplace good. There are a lot of angry people out there, and they keep getting angrier. Some just seem to be angry for the sake of being angry. I suspect this will get much worse after Nov 3rd, as one side or the other will be much angrier.

The novelty has really worn off of 2020. I'd say I can't wait for 2021, but I'm not so sure it's going to be an improvement.
 
Denver PD stated they recovered two firearms at scene, one from the shooter and apparently the second from the victim. There is more video/audio and still shots of the incident leading up to and including the shot being fired. Have to wonder if the Denver TV stations crew was possibly trying to instigate or stage an incident to film.
 
At best the Pinkerton guard will probably plead to a lesser charge, probably manslaughter. It won't be too hard for a good defense to show that he was attacked with a debilitating spray, thus placing him in danger from the sprayer. As an employee of Pinkerton, he'll have competent representation via the company.

In a year or more, the case will go to court and we shall all have forgotten about it and he'll probably walk away without too much pain.
 
Scharfschuetzer said:
At best the Pinkerton guard will probably plead to a lesser charge, probably manslaughter. It won't be too hard for a good defense to show that he was attacked with a debilitating spray, thus placing him in danger from the sprayer. As an employee of Pinkerton, he'll have competent representation via the company.

In a year or more, the case will go to court and we shall all have forgotten about it and he'll probably walk away without too much pain.
Click to expand...

I saw a little earlier where Pinkerton is saying he isn't a Pinkerton employee, but may have some type of subcontractor relationship with them. The city of Denver is saying he isn't licensed to work as a security guard or carry a pistol as a security guard inside the Denver city limits.
 
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The news this morning said he was not licensed as a security guard. But, it's still early... Still, no one should've been killed over this. That's a good reason to stay away from all this craziness.
 
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You spray me with mace or near spray and you can expect a bullet in return. Then again, I wouldn't put myself in the positions these people do. I would never go to one of these protests regardless of which side I was on. Nothing good comes from a BLM protest and nothing good comes from counter protesters either. Neither side is ever swayed.
 
Turn4811 said:
Her take on it there was an argument, security guard with ties to Antifa drew his gun, as he was raising it the other guy lets loose with a volley of bear repellent then gets shot in the face.
Click to expand...

"However, after several right-wing individuals and groups claimed, without evidence, that the shooter was affiliated with antifa, Denver Police tweeted that "further investigation has determined the suspect is a private security guard with no affiliation with Antifa."


Yet another tragedy during a time when everything is dialed to max, and providing an echo chamber for unfounded extremist media claims from either side only amplifies.
 
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Pepper spray vs bullet. Bullet wins.

Problem is that I don't thik the winner is going to like the prize.

This has become a HUGE issue with the proliferation of concealed carry by individuals that do not understand the concept of self defense and a justified shoot. Hell, een I don't understand it sometimes other than to say it is an intensive FACT driven determination coupled with an intensive political decision.

What may be justified under a particular set of facts in one jurisdiction may very well get you indicted and possibly convicted of a homicide in another jurisdiction for the identical fact scenario.

A lot of internet commandos and good law abiding citizens are finding this out the hard way.

Caje's advice.... STAY THE F*** AWAY FROM TROUBLE OR SITUATIONS THAT YOU KNOW BETTER. No reason to insert yourself into ANY situation that may call for the use of deadly force. One of the first things asked in these type of situations is why were you (the shooter) even there in the first place-It goes to merde from there. And don't give me any " I won't let those so and so's dictate where I can go" nonsense. Use some common sense
 
CAJUNLAWYER said:
Problem is that I don't thik the winner is going to like the prize.

This has become a HUGE issue with the proliferation of concealed carry by individuals that do not understand the concept of self defense and a justified shoot. Hell, een I don't understand it sometimes other than to say it is an intensive FACT driven determination coupled with an intensive political decision.

What may be justified under a particular set of facts in one jurisdiction may very well get you indicted and possibly convicted of a homicide in another jurisdiction for the identical fact scenario.

A lot of internet commandos and good law abiding citizens are finding this out the hard way.

Caje's advice.... STAY THE F*** AWAY FROM TROUBLE OR SITUATIONS THAT YOU KNOW BETTER. No reason to insert yourself into ANY situation that may call for the use of deadly force. One of the first things asked in these type of situations is why were you (the shooter) even there in the first place-It goes to merde from there. And don't give me any " I won't let those so and so's dictate where I can go" nonsense. Use some common sense
Click to expand...

Yep. Those who go to "counter-protest" are usually as dumb as those who go to protest. People answering "a call to arms" or some other nonsense. Nobody's opinion is EVER swayed by these protests or counter-protests. We laugh at the NFAC group while some cheer Proud Boys or some other one.

Shooting somebody, even justifiably, can ruin you, finically and personally. Not worth it. That Antifa soyboy you just shot isn't worth the price of the bullet you used to shoot him.
 
I've seen this discussed elsewhere, and I've seen a short video with still photos of the event in question.

It's really an ugly event.
I won't use terms like "security guard" since there's statements he wasn't a legit guard in that circumstance. Pinkerton denied he was one of theirs.

So, we have "shooter" and "shootee", for lack of a better term.

In the clip I've seen shooter grabs at the shootee for some reason. Shootee slaps him and backs away. Shooter draws as shootee backs away; shooter does not back up himself. Shooter appears to shoot AS the shootee is backing away and spraying;

there is a still image where you see the beginning of the spray cloud, AND you can see the empty shell in the air and the slide still out of battery. In other words, shooter had already pulled the trigger before being sprayed.

So I'm sorry, I can't see any justification of this. One guy is holding his can of spray, so you know what he has. He raises it as he backs away from you, which is a defensive posturing, not an assault. You don't get to shoot him for just that.
As the guy isn't licensed to be out there, he doesn't need to be trying to take the spray away from someone else, or otherwise messing with somebody. That's a matter for police or real security. You leave him alone, and if he sprays you the police will attend to him. You don't get to shoot him for finding him moderately offensive
 
So; if an angry person 6 feet away whips out his bear spray and points it at a person he's arguing with, what's about to happen?

Mr. Mouth would be alive had he just walked away with his bear spray in his pocket. Mr. Security Guy wouldn't be in jail if he had backed away and had urged his customers to do the same.

Idiots.
 
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These were from another forum, caution- it shows the shooting. I don't want to break rules so take it down if it's inappropriate.


I posted it, because it seems clear to me- guy with spray was backing away.
Shooter was engaged with him prior in some sort of altercation, got smacked in the face with an open hand, and reacted by drawing on him and then firing.

This looks TO ME, like an emotional reaction to being smacked. Not self-defense if I were on jury. And if he's not official security or PD, no justification for his action. He apparently had no authority to mess with the spray can guy.

Added- the shooter is not in any sort of uniform, just a guy in street clothing. Nothing to indicate he is anyone other than another guy in the crowd.


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10,000% agree about the people involved being idiots.

Since this is a self defense forum, I have a tactical question as it relates to the dynamics of the shooting as it happened, not the mental stability of the parties involved or whether they should have found better things to do that day.

The shooter has a red dot sight. He also has a WML. Pretty sure the WML has a laser. When you look at the hi-res photos on Getty taken by the Denver Post photographer, you can see the red dot from the WML laser reflected on the right lens of the dead guy's sunglasses. From the reflection of the dot, I'm guessing he got shot in the orbital socket. Just a guess.

The self defense tactical question is, the guy that got shot stepped straight back to deploy his OC. From a tactics standpoint, would he have had a better chance of surviving if he would have stepped to his right instead of straight back?
 
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