Period correct, quality refinishing - why does it kill collector value?

[Onomea]

Thanks, Bob. I am a big admirer of your Gene Williams non-RM RM (!) restoration, and the reasoning behind it.

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Say, weren't you the fellow who bought that HD with a Colt SA gripframe a coupla years back? How does one classify something like that? I guess it's either a monstrosity or a really cool piece. I favor the latter. I like guns that someone has tweaked up to meet his own needs without regard to their originality or impact on value to collectors. I thought that SA grip framed HD was really unique, and quite appealing!

 

[bettis1]

Arlo,

I recall the HD/SAA, but it wasn't mine. Can't recall who posted that.

I also am a fan of legitimate modifications which were contemporary with their use. You may recall that I also have a 5.25" RM on which an earlier user modified the hammer spur and the front sight. I'm sure that the rarity of it being the only known RM of that barrel length never crossed his mind. The modifications simply served his purpose better than those of the factory. No better definition of a customized tool could be crafted than that.

Bob

 

[rhmc24]

See my latest pro-restoration statement. Colt 1905 auto I built up from parts. Frame in-the-white after 100 years banging around in storage, slide used and pitted, grips new (grips4u.net), other parts I had because these pre1911s are my "thing". No markings on frame except s/n. I cleaned and mirror polish and sent to Turnbulls for re-marking and charcoal blue.

 

[cflier]

This has been a very interesting thread with lots of opinions, some of them from people that I respect in the S&W collecting family. I have been collecting the old SH top breaks for a long time. When I first started I jumped at the chance to buy top condidition (NIB) revolvers. It soon became apparant to me that there were a number of refinished guns out there being passed off as original finish high condition guns. Interestingly many of the antiques were slightly less than 100% (makes them more believable). I wanted to say phoney finish in the last sentance as I've seriously bought into the gun culture logic regarding original finish, but I thought I'd be more politically correct. I firmly believe that it can be done so well that the top experts in the collecting world can't tell. The realization that it was relatively easy to fake the finish of a gun changed the makeup of my gun horde. Unless a gun is rare or unusual I don't even look at finish when deciding on a purchase. Most people though still see high end finish as first priority. I have purchased extremely rare special order guns for less then the amount paid for 99% finish common guns of the same model sitting right next to them on a table. While I don't want to lose money on a gun, I don't collect them to make a profit. It is a great hobby, a terrific game. All games have to have rules. The rules in the gun collecting culture say that a refinish cuts the value markedly. Those rules may change some day, but I don't see it happening in my life time.
I do have 4 refinished guns in my group. One is a factory refinish on an extremely rare variation. One is a factory finish on a factory engraved gun. Two of them are modern engraved and refinished guns. one of them is a super glittsy Safety with less than average engraving, and the other is a uniqely gold and silver inlaid Safety Hammerless. I bought the last two for not much more than the cost of common unengraved guns. They were purchased to use as counterpoints to lay on the table next to the rest of my collection. I wouldn't have had them refinished originally but I value them for what they are and consider them a legitimate part of my group.
I suspect that a lot of people who read this don't really understand this position. They either want to own a lot of guns and want to shoot them all or want to own some "special" guns but don't want to buy into the rules of the game as established by the gun collecting fraternity. The beauty of living where we do is that we can own whatever we want for whatever reason we want to.
Mark

 

[lonegunman762x51]

Restored is different than reblued and costs a considerable amount more. This particular gun is similar to another one posted here. It is a KCPD pre-war Magnum. When it arrived at my door it was poorly reblued and had a couple of other issues that made it unsafe to shoot. Pre-war Magnums are rare guns in any condition, letting this one end up in a "gun buy back" or turned into a parts gun would have been sad.

Now, I could have taken the "advice" of more than a few members here and simply discarded the gun in the nearest trash can. When I asked about this particular gun most of the responses were negative. They disliked KCPD guns and seemed to think that KCPD registered Magnums do not count as registered Magnums, KCPD pre-war Magnums had no actual value and/or nobody wants or would pay any money for a KCPD gun. I found this a bit odd for two reasons, first S&W did not simply ignore quality standards to sell to the Kansas City PD and second many of the same nay sayers own and/or post pics of their latest ex-police gun on here with amazing regularity.

The work on the gun was done by Dave Chicoine Jr. The grips are Keith Brown and the work is nearly perfect. Dave has marked it under the grips with his initials and date. Nobody is trying to "fool" anyone into thinking it is original. That being said, nobody with be buying it for fire sale prices either.

 

[bettis1]

lonegunman,

That is a beautiful restoration. It sounds like the gun came to you in much the same condition that mine did.

I have to agree with you that those who look down their noses at the KCPD magnums are myopic. It is difficult to understand how someone could have any grasp of the historic times in our Nation that existed during the service of those weapons and not appreciate the role of these guns. Kansas City MO was one of the most corrupt cities in America, the FBI was developing under J. Edgar Hoover, organized crime was rampant, etc. We sometimes look at old guns in our collections and wonder about their history. There can be no question about the KCPD Reg. Mag's. history. Every one of them played a role in these events. Additionally, most of these guns went on to have second and third careers with other police departments, the military, and private citizens after they left the employ of the KCPD. It is difficult to imagine any other single group of guns that collectively reflect the amount of history that they do. I consider them to be one of the most desirable and affordable of collectible guns.

Bob

 

[Hammerdown]

A Wall Hanger Conversation Piece, or a Rescue ?

Hello
I agree that a refinish or if you must call it a restoration takes away from a Guns collectible market value. A gun is only Original Once ! With that said, there are rare or low production examples out there that have been destroyed or modified Still Destroyed in my Eyes that surely deserve to be what I call Rescued


I have one example that was destroyed by someone that felt they wanted to make it's grip frame smaller. It is sadly a S&W first year Registered Magnum, one of 720 that were built that first year being 1935. For some unknown reason some Jack leg, as I call them, proceeded to cut the Lower grip frame of this gun, & remove a Piece of the lower grip frame steel taking out about 3/8" in length and then brought in the back strap, attempting to make lt smaller in it's total grip frame width.


It was said that the original purchaser of it back in 1935, had smaller hands and in factory form, it did not fit his hands well, that being the main reason for this Modification. Regardless of what his reasons were, it destroyed the value and use of this weapon as the Jack Leg that performed the work placed it in a Jawed bench vice to hold it, destroying the serration's on the back strap and fore-strap area, then of all thing's, when he welded it back together, he Brazed the bottom of the grip frame.



This Modification not only looked crude and horrible, but it made the weapon unusable as the braze weld had since cracked. I Purchased it for about a Third of what the market price of these first year Registered Magnums were going for, with the intention of Rescuing it, and making it whole again by having it repaired. Sadly, when i got it and as shown it still had it's original factory blued finish when I got it and it was in Very, Very Nice unworn condition.



Due to the original finish being as nice as it was, led me to believe perhaps the original owner of it, may not have been so impressed with it's modification outcome, and that it may have sat in a dark night stand drawer for many decades after that, due to it's apparent low round count. I came across this gun at our annual S&WCA annual meeting Last year in Troy, Michigan. I had no intentions when I went to that meeting of coming home with the theme gun of that meeting which was The S&W Registered Magnum, but this one caught my eye, and I had an instant vision of a Rescue of it, to make it whole again.



I brought it home and made a ton of phone calls to refinish shops and gun smith's to seek out their advice, of just what to do with it. Like anything else, opinions varied, as did prices of repairing it, and in the end since I had used them before, I chose & felt very comfortable sending it off to Horace Ford the owner, and gun smith of Ford's Custom Gun Refinishing services in Florida for a closer inspection, and his advice in it's repairs. While on the phone with him, he agreed to look it over close and if he felt he could not repair it, he then would send it back to me no charge, for his estimate or opinion. It should also be mentioned in this thread that Ford's do the Nickel Plating for many, many other refinishers out there, as a sub contractor of which the other refinishers seem not to mention, and They are very good with Their Nickel finishes as well.



Horace Ford called after it arrived and said he felt he could do the job without any problems. He explained he would place the 3/8" steel piece back into the lower grip frame area and steel weld it in place, after he moved the back strap back into it's original Postion, as I had sent him an original Pair of Service stock's for him to see where the back strap would have to be Placed in that original Position. He said he could use a Machinist's Needle File on the serration's to make them look close to what they used to be, But that the Jawed Vice placement of this revolver was so violent, that it ripped some of the small serration's out, down to the base metal of the back strap of which he could not replace, or make them reappear but he assured me if Filed and dressed correctly, they Could & would look decent again, as well as Melt out the braze in the last serial number, as the original pictures shows it.


I explained to him, that it need not be a flawless job in appearance, as I had no plans of ever selling it, nor was I trying to fool anyone that it had not been repaired, or refinished. I had bought this gun to make it whole again and to be able to shoot and enjoy it just as Col. Joseph Wesson had intended them to be, as in the shape it was currently in, it was little more than a wall Hanger or conversation piece. Horace had my Gun for Nine Months. I did not call nor bother him about it's Progress once they had it in their hands as I did not want the job Rushed. The man had my total trust in the repairs of this gun.



Nine Months after it went down there, I got a Call from Larna his wife, telling me it was Finally coming home. She said they were able to repair the Jawed vice mess on the back strap, fore-strap, and Lower grip frame Hacking like I had asked them to. She added they did not place the gun on any of their Power Polishing machines prior to Hot Bluing it, as it had no corrosion on it, and their focus was to keep all the corners sharp, all the surfaces flat, and all the factory letter stamp's as crisp and clean as Possible for the refinishing end of the repair project. Shown below is how it looked before it went to Ford's with it's Original 1935 Factory S&W finish wearing a set of Original Walter Roper custom shooting grips, and how it looks now repaired and with the set of original service stock's I sent to them with the gun, when it was repaired.



I was on the range with this gun Just Two days after it arrived back home. It had been fired very little in it's previous destroyed state, as you can see from the original pictures of it, but that has all changed now, as It has fired Hundreds of .357 Magnum rounds since it's return, and the gun is a Pure Tack driver with an ultra silky smooth action. In conclusion, I would not have given any thought to having a Gun of this rarity or Provence a refinishing job if it were safe to use and not destroyed as this one had been. To me, This one was Rescued and made useable again, and it will alway's be what it is, a First Year Registered Magnum that is now enjoyed, Instead of sitting in a Dark night stand drawer.....






Before it's repairs and refinish, how it came to me in original condition

How it looks now after Horace Ford, of Ford's custom gun refinishing made it useable, and whole again.

 

[gaucho1]

Beautiful.
Great rescue.
Absolutely worthwhile.

 

[LSP 972]

Man, a clinical psychologist would have a field day with this thread...

I own the Luger referred to in the original post. It is a garden-variety 1914 DWM, all matching (except the magazines, of course), and in absolutely pristine condition. The stocks were original (and looked it), so I replaced them. Whoever did the re-finish knew what he was about; it is simply flawless, and on par with the deep, lustrous Bright Blue seen on late 50s/early 60s vintage deluxe S&W revolvers.

Yes, it looks a bit incongruous- Lugers are supposed to be rough and menacing, right?- but the price was right (it also came with a proper period holster, Berlin manufacturer markings and everything, that has been judged authentic by several Luger specialists) so I bought it.

Paul and I have handled it in amazement at the range; to think this artifact was manufactured almost a century ago, yet it looks brand new; literally. And still works as designed.

So, a "collector" it ain't. But it is indeed a piece of history, and I enjoy taking it out a couple of times a year just to shoot a few magazines through it for grins. It is amazingly accurate, despite a trashed bore from corrosive primers. It is a good companion for my HKs; every now and then, we have a "Kraut iron day" at the range....

While I have never had the collector mentality, I do appreciate fine specimens and have owned a few. I had a really nice 1942 Colt 1911A1 that was all original... and it sat in my safe, collecting dust. So I gave it to a young man I work with as a graduation present upon his obtaining a degree in forensic science. He is a true "gun guy", and dreams of having one each of the five examples of wartime 1911A1 issue pistols.

So I got his dream started. One thing about retirement... it makes you realize that having stuff is nice, but you cannot take it with you in the next life; if there even is one.

.

 

[K.R._Rabbit]

Hammerdown, that gun is a work of art. I think what you did restoring that gun is the way it should be.
My dad gave me an old double barrel gun that was given to him years ago as a gift. It was made for black powder and was broken when he got it. My brothers and I used to play cowboy and indians with it and we really abused it. Years later I asked my dad for it and I had it restored. I have so much more into it than it is worth but it works again. I have hunted dove with it and it works fine. The thing is, we just have these things for our lifetime and as I get older, I realize it is not that long. These guns will be here a lot longer than us and hopefully our relatives will get to keep and enjoy them as much as we did. We are just caretakers, and Hammerdown, I think you have done a great job of being a class act caretaker.
Rabbit

 

[boykinlp]

I know this is about period correct, quality refinishing. I am assuming this means having an older gun refinished today. Does this change any if the old gun, say a 100 year old model, was factory refinished 90 years ago? Then it is just a refinish, the period correct part is obvious.

Lastly, I do know what happens when we assume.

 

[bettis1]

A date stamp indicating a factory return of an old gun that was done contemporaneously with the use of the gun will also reduce the value; but not as much as a non-factory refinish or modern refinish will. In some cases with a high value gun, such as a Registered Magnum which was factory refinished back in the late '30's-early '40's, it will only be minimally reduced relative to a comparable condition original gun. I think we can attribute that to the relative scarcity and desirability of the model. And, of course, we may not be sure whether the date stamp was a refinish or some other modification. So each case has to stand on its own merit.

We have no way of comparing a modern factory restoration of an old gun with an old factory restoration of a comparable gun because the factory will no longer restore those old guns.

Bob