Pics - what is causing this?

[gunluvinatty]

I had a frustrating day at the range with my M&P. I had several of these failures. Some of the casing were noticeably bent once removed from the breach. What could be the cause?

 

[Brett248Vista]

The dreaded Mag Snag ™!

The first generation magazines do this from time to time. Just make sure you are loading the mags one round at a time and that the rounds stagger correctly (I have a video up on youtube showing how to load the mags, go to the top of this forum to my video sticky thread) and then tap the back of the mag against your hand to make sure all the rounds are to the back of the mag. You may still get one here and there...

 

[DasFriek]

Its 100% caused by the rounds not being loaded and staggered correctly.
My first mag i ever shot mangled 6 CCI Velocitor's and i about wept.
I still do it once in a while now when i get in a hurry, But i try and inspect the mag threw the side pin slot and look to see all are correctly staggered.

Its normal btw, Just gotta learn to take your time.

BTW the best way i found to remove it is just pull it down nose first and let the mag lips spread and let it slid out. Backing it out never worked for me. You need a concussion to set the primer off so bending it like that on the rim wont hurt anything. But still be carefull.

 

[kilo6echo]

Just wanted to chime. Very common when loading the mag incorrectly. Do not worry about having to send it back to s&w. This is a known issue. Take your time, watch the video and all will be well good sir.

 

[gunluvinatty]

Thanks for the input. The frustrating part of this is that I had reviewed the "correct" loading instructions and was being careful as I loaded. Someone (S&W) needs to come up with a better magazine. IMO this is intolerable on a $459 .22. I hate to compare products, but I don't have these issues on my 10/22 which cost significantly less and will shoot any ammo I put in it. The Butler Creek banana clip works without any special treatment - so should this factory mag IMO.

On the plus side, accuracy was good. Will be mounting a red dot tomorrow.

 

[DasFriek]

Are those other mags double stacks?
Thats the issue, It has to be stacked or overly long or hold less rounds as a single stack.
Personally i got over it, Some like you may not.
BTW the price of a gun has absolutely no bearing on how well a gun operates.
And remember this gun is fairly new to the market, And i know for a fact S&W are constantly making improvements in the gun.
Its just that us people who bought them early wont see those benefits usually.

 

[BELT_FED]

If I were in your shoes and was unhappy with the way it run.. id call s&w and return it or id look for a second gen mag even if I just borrowed it from a friend or a gun shop... if the second gen mag fixes your prob. Call smith and just send your mags back and they will replace them... it fixes nothin to get frustrated with it.. just find the prob. Fix it and enjoy it... I work on guns that cost up top 50,000 dollars from time to time that won't run money doesn't ensure flawless operation forever....

 

[Tupperware]

Its 100% caused by the rounds not being loaded and staggered correctly.

100%? No disrespect intended, but I disagree completely. I am CERTAIN that I loaded my mags correctly and still had a failure to feed rate of about 6-10%. My failures looked just like those in the pics. After S&W replaced all my mags, a couple of springs and, possibly, my bolt (not sure on that one) I have not had a single failure in 500 rounds. I have even tried to make it gag by loading it "incorrectly" and it still runs.
IMO, the pics show a classic "short-stroke" failure to feed. Lighter hammer and recoil springs help prevent this by ensuring the bolt cycles fully, thus allowing the top round in the magazine to feed properly.
Call S&W and arrange for a call tag. You won't be without your rifle for very long.

 

[Tupperware]

I had a frustrating day at the range with my M&P.

What ammo were you using?

 

[Brett248Vista]

Thanks for the input. The frustrating part of this is that I had reviewed the "correct" loading instructions and was being careful as I loaded. Someone (S&W) needs to come up with a better magazine. IMO this is intolerable on a $459 .22. I hate to compare products, but I don't have these issues on my 10/22 which cost significantly less and will shoot any ammo I put in it. The Butler Creek banana clip works without any special treatment - so should this factory mag IMO.

On the plus side, accuracy was good. Will be mounting a red dot tomorrow.

That is not what I've heard about Butler Creek Banana Magazines for the 10/22... I've heard the only one's that feed reliably as the box stock Ruger mags.

 

[Ky Bob]

Yep mag problem. Do not use the button on the side of the mag to lessen the effort to load the mag. Push them in just like you would a .223, 7.62, etc. and that should help. Some folks have gotten new mags from SW if they call and complain about them. Which I would defiantly do!

 

[Jswiney9]

how about before weall jump down peoples throats and tell them that they dont know how to load a mag that we hear more about whats going on? there are people who have shot probably 100's of thousands of rounds with the military still getting stove pipes with these guns. I have an acquaintance who had to bring his gun in for work earlier this week (one of the main reasons i decided not to get one) for work after about 15k rounds through it. There is a problem with this gun, wether it be mags, the blowback design, or whatever it may be. some of these guns are messed up. when somebody comes to the forum asking for help they want help, they dont want to be told that they dont know how to operate their gun. (make sure you KNOW they dont know how to load it/shoot it/clean it/pull the trigger with the tongue stuck out the right way to deflect the extractor)

 

[BeginingOfTheEnd]

Like Bob said, don't use the load assist. If you do, barely. I loaded mags properly, carefully, rounds appeared to be seated properly and still had your problem. But if there is constant tension it should eliminate the snags.

 

[Brett248Vista]

KYBob,

I may actually shoot a new Mag Loading video. The last few times I've just been loading my mags as if there was no load assist.. No issues even with my Gen1 mag.

 

[Ky Bob]

how about before weall jump down peoples throats and tell them that they dont know how to load a mag that we hear more about whats going on?

Its the design of the mag thats the problem my friend not the operator.

 

[Tupperware]

Its the design of the mag thats the problem my friend not the operator.

+1
Yet, still, there is endless discussion about loading mags. The solution is available for free from S&W. I do not recall a single case of a rifle that was returned for repair continuing to have this problem.
In fact, on my most recent range visit, I shot up all the open boxes of ammo it WOULDN'T feed before I sent it in for repair and it didn't skip a beat.
I now load my mags using the button to relieve all tension on the top round and drop in several at a time-still no problems. The only thing I am careful to do is make sure the rim of the top round is in front of the one below. After filling the mag, I slap each side of the mag on the bench (if I remember) as it helps ensure the rounds are staggered, alternating side to side.

 

[gunluvinatty]

I was using Federal Champion ammo.

And yes, I will call S&W. Thanks to the helpful folk on this forum I have a better idea of the problem and solution than I did earlier. Thank you. I am sure S&W will do their best to fix the issue with my mag.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Yep mag problem. Do not use the button on the side of the mag to lessen the effort to load the mag. Push them in just like you would a .223, 7.62, etc. and that should help. Some folks have gotten new mags from SW if they call and complain about them. Which I would defiantly do!

Interesting you mention that.

I picked up a Sig522 a few weeks ago. There's no ALAB (Ambidextrous Load Assist Button) on the mags so ya gotta push em in. I got into the habit of doing that... and just kept doing so (without thinking about it) when I switched to the 15-22 during the last couple range visits. I didn't have any mag-snags. Since I only have averaged about 1% mag-snags I didn't think too much of it.... but after reading your post...hmmmm... I think you may be right.

ps. My thumb is writing a letter of protest.

 

[chuck s]

It's vital the magazines be loaded properly especially with a rimmed cast like .22LR.

The rim of each cartridge must be in front of the rim below it. Otherwise the cartridge will "trip over" the lower cartridge and and can then squirt out the top of the feed lips or otherwise misfeed as shown in the oft-posted photos.

Magazine design can mitigate this problem, but careless loading can accomplish many things.

The M&P15-22 isn't an optimal .22LR rifle design, it's a wannabe M16 rifle for want of a better term and the design poses several limitations for a rimmed cartridge.

Note the design of most .22LR pistol magazines. They're usually steeply angled making feeding very reliable. the M&P15-22 magazine has to fit in the vertical M16 magazine well and magazine shape. Cartridge cases should be flush against the back edge of the magazine (rap it sharply occasionally during loading) and the rim forward of the cartridge below it.

This olde Ruger .22 Automatic has a steep magazine angle and Ruger has kept this design for 60 years.

-- Chuck

 

[Tupperware]

I was using Federal Champion ammo.

In my experience Champion is not the greatest round. When I chronographed it, velocity was all over the chart. At first I thought it was my chrono but other ammo gave consistently good results.
Anytime I have a .22LR gun that exhibits reliability problems, I test it with CCI Minimag 40gr round nose. If it won't run on that round, there is definitely a problem.

 

[Jswiney9]

Its the design of the mag thats the problem my friend not the operator.

apparently you didnt read my post at all, i was taking up for the OP because every time we get a thread like this people automatically assume that someone has no idea how to load a mag. go back and read my post please

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

how about before weall jump down peoples throats and tell them that they dont know how to load a mag that we hear more about whats going on? there are people who have shot probably 100's of thousands of rounds with the military still getting stove pipes with these guns. I have an acquaintance who had to bring his gun in for work earlier this week (one of the main reasons i decided not to get one) for work after about 15k rounds through it. There is a problem with this gun, wether it be mags, the blowback design, or whatever it may be. some of these guns are messed up. when somebody comes to the forum asking for help they want help, they dont want to be told that they dont know how to operate their gun. (make sure you KNOW they dont know how to load it/shoot it/clean it/pull the trigger with the tongue stuck out the right way to deflect the extractor)

apparently you didnt read my post at all, i was taking up for the OP because every time we get a thread like this people automatically assume that someone has no idea how to load a mag. go back and read my post please

Jswiney,

Chill.

Let's move along. Thanks

 

[Tupperware]

Its the design of the mag thats the problem my friend not the operator.

I believe the mag is only a small player in the problem. I think the big issue is a too heavy mainspring compounded by a heavy hammer spring.

 

[Brett248Vista]

Another trip to the range another 200 rounds through my 15-22 and ZERO mag snags.. ZERO problems!

I am loading my mags one round at a time like I do a pistol mag. I actually think I am just going to remove the mag assist buttons from all three mags. One mag is the original and 2 are the newer version. Again, absolutely ZERO issues under normal or rapid firing. I cleared 25 rounds in a few seconds.

 

[CAR-15M4]

I still have troubles with my first gen mags when I load them super carefully. Not complaining, they are going back to the factory for replacement. Just wanted to counter the whole "if you load it right it will work perfectly" crowd.

 

[Jswiney9]

Jswiney,

Chill.

Let's move along. Thanks

chill? every time somebody comes on here asking for help there are people that tell them that they dont know how to handle/use their weapon/load a mag, what did i say that was out of line, i just read it again and i said nothing negative at all.. what did i do wrong?

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

chill? every time somebody comes on here asking for help there are people that tell them that they dont know how to handle/use their weapon/load a mag, what did i say that was out of line, i just read it again and i said nothing negative at all.. what did i do wrong?

Here is how it works. -- State your views and opinion on the subject in a thread. Don't need to be telling other Forum members how or in what manner or under what conditions they should be offering their views or commenting on their reading. If I see something that requires addressing here I will. Consider your postings addressed. PM me to discuss further if needed.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Another trip to the range another 200 rounds through my 15-22 and ZERO mag snags.. ZERO problems!

I am loading my mags one round at a time like I do a pistol mag. I actually think I am just going to remove the mag assist buttons from all three mags. One mag is the original and 2 are the newer version. Again, absolutely ZERO issues under normal or rapid firing. I cleared 25 rounds in a few seconds.

Now you'll have to make a video: ALAB Removal

 

[lonejacklarry]

After filling the mag, I slap each side of the mag on the bench (if I remember) as it helps ensure the rounds are staggered, alternating side to side.

I would suggest doing the "slapping" the spine of the mag two or three times during the course of loading the mag. Also, using a bench must be nicer than having to use the side of one's helmet to achieve the same effect.

ChuckS and several of the older folks will remember this technique.

 

[Ky Bob]

apparently you didnt read my post at all, i was taking up for the OP because every time we get a thread like this people automatically assume that someone has no idea how to load a mag. go back and read my post please

I did go back and read your post again and I do apologize. I thought you were blaming the operator(loading the mag) rather than the magazine problem itself. Once again I was wrong and mis-read your post, sorry.