Pistol powder question

[leon riverrat]

In reviewing the Hodgdon reloading data I notice that H4227 powder is listed for use in 38 special +P loads with 158 grain bullets. This seems to be a relatively slow powder for use in the 38 special. It would seem that if H4227 is suitable for 38 Special +P loads then H-110, Lil'gun, and 2400 might also have potential for such use as they have a faster burn rate than H 4227 according to the Hodgdon burn rate chart. Anyone have an explaination for this?
I have been working with Lil'gun for some time for my 38/44 loads and have been happy with the results. Lil'gun seems to produce higher velocities with less pressure than other similar powders. This certainly is the case with small rifle cartridges such as the 22 hornet and 221 fireball.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Thanks for the heads up Leon.

Folks have used 2400 in 38spl for years and years. H110 not so much but, I suppose it could be done, as long as the pressure is kept up to the top of the scale. H110 just needs pressure to work. It will stick a bullet if downloaded.

What kind of information can you share about your Lil' Gun loads? That would be very interesting to me! PM me if you don't want to put them on the forum.

 

[MMA10mm]

Hi Leon,
H4227 (and IMR- too, for that matter) have long been found to be especially nice for loads with heavy cast bullets, even in calibers where it is typically thought of as too slow for. I seem to recall that 4227 has a lower flame temperature, and the nature of it's tubular shape both contributed to making it a particularly cast-bullet-friendly powder.

By extension, you're logical thoughts seem good, but recall that powders can be very particular, even though they are similar in burning rate. For example, H-110 (W-296) can be very touchy with reduced loads, and this is why both Winchester and Hodgdon caution against reducing the loads very far. This powder can only be used with near-max loads.

2400 is also a good powder for cast bullets, and it is certainly applicable to heavy loads in the 38 Spl., but you should really check out good resources for guidance. Skeeter Skelton used to recommend a heavy load with 2400 in the 38 Spl. case, but he used Lyman cast bullet 358156, which has two crimp grooves. He seated the bullets "long" in the lower crimp groove with this load. This resulted in two things: 1. It gave more room in the powder chamber of the case, which eases pressures, and 2. It made the cartridges so long that they'd only fit in 357s, so there was no chance of shooting these near-magnum loads in a weaker 38. He did this because 357 brass was "scarce," but I think he did it because 357 brass was three times more expensive as 38s. (Not criticizing, I'm cheap too!)

I've not tried Lil'gun in the 38 or 357, but I've heard the same description from others, that it gives higher velocities at lower pressures. I think this is somewhat cartridge-specific as far as the degree of benefit you get in this regard.

Keep in mind that ball powders can be very sensitive to too low of a load density. The ballisticians I know say to never go below 75% loading density with a ball powder. You have to compare what a safe max load is to how full the ball powder fills the case. If the max load only gets you to 50% case capacity, you probably shouldn't use the ball powder. You'll get erratic ignition or worse of all (usually seen in rifles) secondary explosive effect (S.E.E.), wherein the powder all gets lit at once, rather than progressively, and results in a severe over-pressure situation.

Are you planning on using cast or jacketed bullets?

 

[Joni_Lynn]

Lil gun seems to be a powder that a lot of people like to use however Bob Baker of Freedom Arms has found that one to cause more trouble with barrel damage than other powders.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Joni,

Could you please elaborate on your statement? Any reason why?

 

[Joni_Lynn]

There's a thread over at Graybeard in the Freedom Arms section.
Lil gun burns extremely hot and doesn't appear to be good for some calibers of handgun.

 

[OKFC05]

H110/296 is not recommended for the .38. There are better choices.
Works great in .357 magnum where the pressures are more to its liking.

The reason no two burn rate charts agree is that burn rates are a function of containment for smokeless powders, and if you change the operating pressure, you change the burn rate. Burn rate charts are at best rough guides, when you start talking about specific cartridges.

 

[gboling]

Several years ago I stuck a .38 bullet with a starting load of 2400 from Lyman's 48th edition manual. There was a lot of unburned but scorched powder left. I stay with the faster powders in that caliber since that fun little incident.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Very interesting read if you go look up the post that Joni references above on Lil Gun.

I will have to rethink my using that powder given the results. I don't like the idea of burning out barrels. It makes me wonder if there is some list of the nitroglycerin percentage in each of our powders somewhere.

 

[Paul5388]

Peter,

Hercules took the double based powders in the DuPont split around 1914. Alliant works within the same constraints, even though IMR has a few double based powders.

I don't know of any single based ball powders, so they all have nitroglycerin in them. The nitroglycerin content is part of what makes double based powders burn hotter and also lose some of their energy at lower temperatures (Blue Dot seems to be an exception to that characteristic).

Some of the older reloading manuals identified which type a particular powder was, but I don't know of a chart with that information.

Solo 1000 and Solo 1250 are both single based, thus they are called "Solo". 700X and 800X are the only two IMR powders I'm aware of being double based.