Please explain! 9mm revolvers!

[Waltswood]

9mm revolvers

The cost of ammo is a good reason to prefer 9mm over .38.

 

[Dave Lively]

And how, pray tell, do you intend to shoot rimless ammunition in a revolver without them? Sure, it'll work sometimes, but it's no fun going bang, click, click, bang, click, click.

That has not been true with my 610. The only time I use moon clips is when I feed it rounds so hot they have sticky extraction or the rare occasions I tried a cylinder or two of 40 S&W. I have fired a few thousand rounds without moon clips and never had a problem with ignition. If I carried the gun for something serious I would use the clips but my 610 is strictly a range gun.

The only time I did not use moon clips and regretted it was the time I tried a cylinder or DoubleTap ammo. I have fired my own hot reloads, many types of factory ammo including some of the original Norma ammo and never had a problem with extraction. But I had to get a rod and tap out the empties with that ammo. Ejection was really sticky with the moon clip but they came out. That particular ammo is too hot for my gun and I plan to shoot the rest through a friend's Glock.

 

[Model39]

Dual Caliber 357/9MM Model 66-2

I've shown this before. I wanted a dual caliber 357/9MM revolver so I got a Model 66-2 and another Model 66-2 cylinder and sent the revolver to TK Custom, and had Tom machine the existing 357 cylinder for full moon clips, and the second cylinder for 9MM with moon clips. Both work fine, and there is very little difference in accuracy at 50 yards. I do own 2 3" Model 547's and 1 Model 940, but this Model 66-2 combo works just fine for me. I am seriously thinking of getting a second cylinder for my 3" Model 65-5 and having Tom make me another combo revolver. To me these combo revolvers offer the best of both worlds.

 

[WC145]

I'd love to see a 9mm revolver designed for the 9 from the start, i.e. A shorter cylinder to take advantage of the shorter 9mm round. Today's 9mm designs are converted 38 or 38/357 revolvers and the frame is longer than the 9mm needs. Same deal with 45 ACP revolvers. Put a 9mm round next to a 357 round, the length difference is how much shorter the frame could be.

Taurus mad a version of their model 905 9mm snubby called the "Instant Backup", it had a bobbed hammer and a shorter, 9mm length cylinder and frame. I had one and can tell you that the little bit of difference (maybe 5/16") in frame length between it and a standard length snubby means nothing in terms of concealability.

People should understand that the bullet diameter is not the same for all these cartridges being discussed. 9mm is of course .355. .38 Super is .356. The .38 Spec and .357 Mag are .357. While convertible revolvers have been made for some time, it is normal for them to use the barrel of the largest cartridge diameter in those. One cartridge or the other is not going to be very accurate. In a revolver dedicated to 9mm it would be just fine I'm sure. But in revolvers I prefer the the .38 and .357's. I shoot .45ACP in both revolvers and semi's. But I see no reason for a 9mm revolver at my house except as an interesting collector piece like a 547.

I have a 360J that I had converted to 9mm and I can tell you from experience that the .001-.002" difference in diameter is a much bigger deal in internet discussion than in the real world. There is no appreciable difference in my guns accuracy when using 9mm as opposed to .38spl. You'll find plenty of others, like Model39, who have similar experiences.



As far as why a 9mm revolver? Because it is a more efficient cartridge than the .38spl with performance approaching .357mag ballistics without anywhere near as much recoil and muzzle blast. Additionally, the combination of short cartridges and moonclips make them super fast to reload, second only to .45ACP revolvers with moonclips.

 

[SilentKnight]

9mm J frames are great backup weapons if you also carry 9mm for your primary EDC firearm. Same ammo. As stated previously lots of choices on types of 9mm you want to carry. Other than that... if you carry one gun, probably better choices out there. Whatever flips your switch.

 

[Kernel Crittenden]

.....sent the revolver to TK Custom....

Your able to use the same yoke with both? I ask only because other similar conversions I've seen had individual yokes for each cylinder. One for both would be less expensive.

 

[WC145]

Your able to use the same yoke with both? I ask only because other similar conversions I've seen had individual yokes for each cylinder. One for both would be less expensive.

Pinnacle High Performance Guns did the 9mm conversion on my 360J back in 2008, rechambering the original carbon steel cylinder to 9x23, cutting it for moonclips, chamfering the charge holes, along with a bunch of other work. A couple of years later I picked up a titanium .38spl cylinder from Numrich's with plans to have it fitted to the gun. I finally got around to sending it back to Mark at Pinnacle last fall and had him fit it. Now if I want to swap cylinders it's just a matter of pulling the crane (yoke), slipping off the cylinder that's on it and slipping on the new one then button it back up.

 

[jtcarm]

Cheap, plentiful 9mm rounds with similar ballistics?

My first CF handgun was an Old Model Model Blackhawk .357/9mm convertible. The 9mm cylinder is still unfired after 40 years

If S&W would make one, the 9mm cylinder would get used.

 

[Model39]

Works Fine

Your able to use the same yoke with both? I ask only because other similar conversions I've seen had individual yokes for each cylinder. One for both would be less expensive.

Tom fit the 9MM cylinder to the same yoke which was original to the revolver. I had sent him the gun, and had a action job done too, all which came out great.

 

[HEADKNOCKER]

It's just a matter of getting the end shake & cylinder gap correct for the yoke used via end shake shims as to not change the length of the yoke like you would with a yoke stretcher, Then fit/file the ratchet/extractor stars to the original hands width..
When I did my 642/942 there was only two ratchets that needed dressed to time correctly & just a few thousandths at that.. Go easy!!
I also put an overtravel pin inside the rebound springs made from drill rod fit exactly with just a few thous of overtravel , makes your trigger job on a DAO much nicer IMO.. You can also fit one to the back of the trigger but that is a permanent addition & can be seen..

642/942 & 38 Super 940

 

[WC145]

It's just a matter of getting the end shake & cylinder gap correct for the yoke used via end shake shims as to not change the length of the yoke like you would with a yoke stretcher, Then fit/file the ratchet/extractor stars to the original hands width..
When I did my 642/942 there was only two ratchets that needed dressed to time correctly & just a few thousandths at that.. Go easy!!
I also put an overtravel pin inside the rebound springs made from drill rod fit exactly with just a few thous of overtravel , makes your trigger job on a DAO much nicer IMO.. You can also fit one to the back of the trigger but that is a permanent addition & can be seen.

I never considered an internal trigger stop, that's a great idea for someone that doesn't want to change the outward appearance of their revolver. And, I agree about the improved action with a trigger stop, regardless of where it's located. It shortens the pull quite a bit, more like a Colt action. I prefer the feel and have them on most of my DA revolvers.

 

[Pointblank2U]

In a nutshell, a neat idea that isn't viable. Using moon clips in any revolver greatly reduces reliability.

 

[dwever]

In a nutshell, a neat idea that isn't viable. Using moon clips in any revolver greatly reduces reliability.

A giant piece of misinformation there.

"Any revolver"? Did you mean 9mm? Either way, simply not true. A distinction needs to be made between rimmed and rimless cased rounds as things are quite different between the two.

With rimless cartridges the moon clip rides inside the indented groove in the case, and functions like a cartridge rim to set the headspace for the cartridge when chambered. This technology goes back to WW I when 1911 production couldn't keep up with war demand and at the request of the War Department both S&W and Colt produced .45 ACP moon clipped revolvers sharing an S&W moon clip patent. Revolvers using rimless cartridges cannot generally be fired without moon clips.

A revolver chambered for a rimmed cartridge must be specially modified to allow for the use of moon clips. The cylinder has to be cut so the moon clip sits flush on the mouth of each chamber without changing the head spacing of the cartridge. When done properly such as .357 S&W PC weapons there is zero negative effect on reliability because the cartridge is in precisely the same place with or without the clip.

Not only is it dead wrong to say any revolver using moon clips is less reliable, the opposite can be true. An article I can't properly cite at the moment pointed out that traditionatl revolvers can have difficulty in reliably extracting spent cartridges. If the revolver is not handled properly, one or more empty cartridges can get stuck and fail to extract. In a worst case scenario, the ejector star can actually slip past one or more of the cartridge rims, making it even more difficult to clear the spent casing. This can't occur with a moon clip because all of the empty cartridges eject simultaneously, and the moon clip provides a firm platform that the ejector cannot pass enhancing not diminishing reliability.

I've been competing with three PC 627's since 2008 with moon clips without any reliability issues. Nor has my 586 L-Comp or PC 686 Plus ever EVER had a problem. When I agency qualify with my 586 L-Comp as a back-up/off duty, it takes seven moon-clip reloads for the 50 round course of fire. Multiplied thousands of moonclip and free-drop loaded rounds through my five .38/.357 revolvers and zero issues with both carbon steel and alloy moon clips; nor have I seen or am I aware of issues at USPSA where moon clips are ubiquitous in the revolver class in .38 and more recently 9mm.

Although I don't know anyone ever that has had it happen, in theory a bent moon clip has the potential to jam a revolver by inhibiting the proper rotation of the cylinder. But again, that's in in the abstract as I've yet to encounter that.

With rimless cartridges such as 9mm I do not have nearly the experience but I understand you have to be more careful if you reload; but conventional wisdom is that with rimless cartridges the use of factory ammo such as American Eagle using moon clips does not even marginally reduce reliability.


**The modern moon clip was devised shortly before World War I around 1908 and became widespread during the war, when the M1911 semi-automatic pistol could not be manufactured fast enough for the war effort. The U.S. War Department asked Smith & Wesson and Colt to devise ways to use the 1911's .45 rimless cartridge in their revolvers. The result was the M1917 revolver using moon clips to chamber the .45 ACP ammunition. While Smith & Wesson invented and patented the moon clip, at the request of the Army S&W allowed Colt to also use their design free of charge in their own version of the war revolver.

 

[StrawHat]

Korth is offering this option for "L" frame S&Ws.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0xLtBU64dg[/ame]

Personally, I would prefer that option but for a lighter frame, ie "J" or even "K".

Kevin

 

[wolverine]

In a nutshell, a neat idea that isn't viable. Using moon clips in any revolver greatly reduces reliability.

Morning Badge130

It seems that all the 9mm/.45 revolver WINNING shooters at
my local & state revolver matches don't agree with that mentality
as they keep on winning using moon clip revolvers.

I have been shooting moon clip revolvers for a very long time
now & as of yet haven't seen this reduced reliability that you
speak of. In fact I have seen way more reliability issues in my
non moon clip rimmed cartridge revolvers than my moon clip
guns.