Please help ID
- Thread starter eagle670
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Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! You have a .38 M&P Model of 1905, from around 1907. It could be a 1st or 2nd Change depending o n how many alignment pins are in the ejector star. JP@AK or some other M&P wizard will be along shortly to give you more pertinent data.
Welcome to the Smith & Wesson Forum from Arizona.
Welcome. I have 38 M&P, #81,XXX that shipped in June 1906. Those original stocks are very nice and are valuable in that condition so don't separate them from the gun. As for the gun, I think $400 is generous for the brown finish, but looks like you have a very serviceable revolver that has not been touched up or refinished ever.
About the only way externally to tell whether you have a 1st Change or 2nd Change is looking at the extractor star as Guy says. The 1st Change extractor arms had rounded ends and the 2nd Change had square ends. Push the extractor rod rearward and look at the rear of the cylinder for a small alignment pin. The presence of the pin indicates 2nd Model.
I have a few guns in the gray area, #73,251 to #146,899 and all I have lack the 2nd Change extractor features. I have 81,XXX, 100,XXX, 106,XXX, 113,XXX, 129,XXX without any 2nd Change features, which indicates the 2nd Change did not happen until late in that serial number range.
About the only way externally to tell whether you have a 1st Change or 2nd Change is looking at the extractor star as Guy says. The 1st Change extractor arms had rounded ends and the 2nd Change had square ends. Push the extractor rod rearward and look at the rear of the cylinder for a small alignment pin. The presence of the pin indicates 2nd Model.
I have a few guns in the gray area, #73,251 to #146,899 and all I have lack the 2nd Change extractor features. I have 81,XXX, 100,XXX, 106,XXX, 113,XXX, 129,XXX without any 2nd Change features, which indicates the 2nd Change did not happen until late in that serial number range.
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Muley Gil
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They are aftermarket and chipped. They won't add to the value.
handejector
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The features that change a 1905-1st to a 1905-2nd are often mixed.
For example:
137808 shipped March, 1910.
It has all the features of a 1905-2nd EXCEPT for the dowel in the cylinder, those being:
1- No key on rebound slide, and no keyway in the frame
2- Patent date on rebound slide
3- No shims in cyl notches
4- Rib on bottom of hammer
I consider it a 1905-2nd that still has the old extractor. The other changes are more significant, IMO.
Expect to find mixed features on various guns. For example, I have another 1905-2nd that has the keyway cut in the frame, but no key on the rebound slide.
The dowel pin was apparently the last feature incorporated into the 1905-2nd, but don't be amazed if you find a 1905-2nd with a dowel pin that lacks one of the other features.
For example:
137808 shipped March, 1910.
It has all the features of a 1905-2nd EXCEPT for the dowel in the cylinder, those being:
1- No key on rebound slide, and no keyway in the frame
2- Patent date on rebound slide
3- No shims in cyl notches
4- Rib on bottom of hammer
I consider it a 1905-2nd that still has the old extractor. The other changes are more significant, IMO.
Expect to find mixed features on various guns. For example, I have another 1905-2nd that has the keyway cut in the frame, but no key on the rebound slide.
The dowel pin was apparently the last feature incorporated into the 1905-2nd, but don't be amazed if you find a 1905-2nd with a dowel pin that lacks one of the other features.
It must have been a challenging time in the factory. Absolutely standard operating procedure of the S&W factory to transition from one model/change to another and none of the changes happened overnight, but there is some evidence that the actual change from 1st to 2nd Change, with all the features, happened towards the end of the number range that Roy suggests. Much closer to the 146,000 than the 73,000 end. It seems that your #137808 example is close to having all the features of the 2nd Change, but not yet all.
I can also attest to the fact that the 1st Change did not happen with #73,251, since I have #80,XXX and it does not have a rebound slide. I also have 100,XXX and 129,XXX that I believe do not have any of the changes listed for the 2nd Model. I cannot, however, identify all the interior changes made to the 2nd Change so if anyone wants to point them out in my images it would be appreciated.. Lastly, I have 150,XXX that is clearly a 3rd Model. Photos of the 4 guns are below for comparison.
I can also attest to the fact that the 1st Change did not happen with #73,251, since I have #80,XXX and it does not have a rebound slide. I also have 100,XXX and 129,XXX that I believe do not have any of the changes listed for the 2nd Model. I cannot, however, identify all the interior changes made to the 2nd Change so if anyone wants to point them out in my images it would be appreciated.. Lastly, I have 150,XXX that is clearly a 3rd Model. Photos of the 4 guns are below for comparison.
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handejector
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If those guns are the second and third pics, they obviously have two features of the 2nd Change- the ribbed hammer and the pat date. The rebound slides probably do not have keys. The cyl notches probably do not have shims.
N&J covers the changes pretty well. I list the 2nd change features in Post 9.
rct269
Member
Not to put too fine a point on it, but in S&W world what some might prefer to call an extractor is known as an ejector. As to the meaning of square tips, that would be an indication the alignment of the ejector is achieved by means other than radiused tips---such as a pin or pins. A likely interim meaning might be radiused tips may have been deemed excessively costly---and/or unreliable.
Ralph Tremaine
Check for the small dowel at the rear of the cylinder as shown in post #6?
Here is an image of rounded tips on the star.
For me, coming from a doublegun terminology perspective, there is a BIG difference between ejectors and extractors. Ejectors do exactly what the word says, the eject the spent cases from the chamber via a spring loaded ejector system. Extractors, on the other hand, simply pull the spent case partially out of the chamber so they can be easily removed.
For me, coming from a doublegun terminology perspective, there is a BIG difference between ejectors and extractors. Ejectors do exactly what the word says, the eject the spent cases from the chamber via a spring loaded ejector system. Extractors, on the other hand, simply pull the spent case partially out of the chamber so they can be easily removed.
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I have read in "the book" a statement that a rib at the bottom of the hammer was added for the 2nd Change, but the only thing I see is a transverse raised section at the bottom of the hammer that contacts the rebound slide. Is that what is called a rib?
I don't see any alignment pins and you may not have any unless one is hidden by the star and shaft in your picture.
handejector
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It's a M+P model of 1905.
I don't think that first or second change, rib or not, round or square, really makes a difference. So many new posters, often non gunnies, pose ID questions here, and are overwhelmed with minutiae.
Last year, this year...I still think it's about a $400 piece.
I don't think that first or second change, rib or not, round or square, really makes a difference. So many new posters, often non gunnies, pose ID questions here, and are overwhelmed with minutiae.
Last year, this year...I still think it's about a $400 piece.
Well, some of us want to learn more about S&W, so ignore this thread if it offends you.
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Nice old S & W!
I really like the early "1905"s with the Square Butt and original Stocks.
If you plan to shoot it, please stay with standard Loading .38 Special Lead Bullet Cartridges, or, Mid range Wadcutters.
Please stay away from all or any "+P", "FMJ" or "Semi Jacketed" Cartridges...
Be sure and Oil it up well, every single thing in or on it which moves, Oil it all well...Lord only knows the last time anyone else did, and it may have been a long long time ago when last Lubed.
