Please Help Identify This 38 special.

[rigrat]

Any help in identifying this revolver ( model, Date, ect.) would be much appreciated

I traded today for what I thought was a S&W M10. Turns out it doesn't have a model number on it so I am not sure if it is actually a M10. It has a little surface rust, nothing heavy, may can clean it up with some steel wool and oil. Either way I traded a Ruger LCP and figure I got the better gun out of the deal. Lock up is decent and am waiting on tomorrow to shoot it to see if it is accurate like the man told me it was.

No Model Number:

1. Type= Hand ejector
2. Ser#= S 9529XX
3. Caliber= .38 S&W Special
4. Barrel= 4" Barrel "Skinny"
5. Sights= Fixed

Does have a strain screw in front of grip frame.
5-screw model







Compared to my M10-9




Thanks in advance.

 

[Art Doc]

That's a post-war "Transitional" Military & Police Model made around 1946 +/-. It is of the pre-war design but assembled after the war with left over parts (hence the Transitional title). This becomes the Model 10 in 1957 when numbers are assigned.

Compare the hammers on the two guns to see the difference between pre-war and post-war at a glance.

 

[rigrat]

I did notice the different hammers on the two handguns.

So what I have is a pre-war, transitional, Military & Police assembled after the war around 1946.

So I assume these are pretty much the same as a M10 then as far as strength and quality goes?

And are these good revolvers?

And are these considered collectors in its current condition and state?

Or would this be a good sound 38 special project gun?

 

[Art Doc]

Post-war Transitional. No such thing as a pre-war transitional.

It is a post-war gun because that's when it was assembled and shipped. But most or all of the parts are pre-war and it has the pre-war "long action" (ID'd by the hammer shape).

Collectors want scarce and pristine. They made several million of these and this one shows some use. It's a "shooter."

M10 quality? Yes. Strength? Maybe. See comments below.

IMO it is safe to shoot with any factory loaded ammo. Questions arise about the so-called +P stuff and my general rule of thumb is I only use moderate powered ammo in pre-1930 guns because of inconsistent tempering of steel in those days. But that's my opinion and there are others.

Good? No, they're great. Project gun? I would not spend a lot of money on one like this. No economic return. I would shoot it and enjoy it or swap it for something else.

 

[rigrat]

Ok since WWII ran from 1941-45 The parts are made from older than 1930's stock and should handle the current realm of 38 special loads?

As far as a project gun I was thinking of shortening the barrel to 3" and having the sight re-installed, then round butting it.

May just leave it as it is for now.

 

[JP@AK]

Hello
Thanks for posting so many helpful photos.
What you have is a postwar .38 Military & Police revolver. Some call these "transitional guns" but there is some debate over that issue. It's true that the M&Ps shipped from early 1946 'til late 1948 had some parts that were of the prewar variety. The earliest examples had an SV prefix in the serial number and this went away sometime in March, 1946, when the prefix became a simple S. This happened at about serial number S813xxx.
Your particular example most likely shipped in the fall of 1947, probably October or November. I have close-by numbers in my database that shipped in both of those months. As you probably are aware, S&W never shipped guns in serial order.
Your example shows some, but not all of the so-called prewar features. It has the patent dates on the barrel, for example, but not the larger extractor rod knob. This is what I would expect with an S numbered gun this late in the game. Yours is also wearing the postwar style stocks. I suspect they will have the third style washers on the inside as well. Next time you have them off, would you shoot a picture of the inside and post it for me, please? Also let me know if the serial number of your revolver is stamped on the inside of the right grip panel. I suspect it will be, but it could be a different number if the stocks got swapped at some point.
One very interesting fact about your revolver is the presence of a flat head screw on the rear sideplate position. I wonder if your stocks have a dimple for the older style round head screw. When you have them off, if they number to the gun, I would be interested to know if the dimple is there.
The nicest thing about these early postwar guns is the long throw hammer. I much prefer it to the short throw, so-called "speed hammer" that was introduced early in 1948. This happened somewhere around S990xxx or S991xxx and carried over into the C prefix serial sequence. Those guns are true "pre-Model 10" revolvers. Yours is not.
Regards,
Jack

 

[JP@AK]

parts are made from older than 1930's stock

No. I think that is highly unlikely. Frames and barrels may have been forged during the war, perhaps. But almost certainly not before the 1930s. And frankly, I doubt your frame was made before the war was over, although the barrel probably was. Note the absence of both the vertical and horizontal holes in the bottom of the grip frame. A frame made during the war would have been set up for a lanyard ring. Virtually all the SV and early S guns have both holes and the vertical one is plugged. By the time the numbers got up to the level of yours, this feature is unknown.
Jack

 

[rigrat]

No. I think that is highly unlikely. Frames and barrels may have been forged during the war, perhaps. But almost certainly not before the 1930s. And frankly, I doubt your frame was made before the war was over, although the barrel probably was. Note the absence of both the vertical and horizontal holes in the bottom of the grip frame. A frame made during the war would have been set up for a lanyard ring. Virtually all the SV and early S guns have both holes and the vertical one is plugged. By the time the numbers got up to the level of yours, this feature is unknown.
Jack

Jack that is what I was trying to figure out if the parts used to make this revolver where parts post 1930. I was conceerned about what SaxonPig said about the heat treatment before 1930.

 

[rigrat]

Ok here are the pics of the grip panels you can just see a slight imprint on the right grip and just feel a slight bump to the top of the screw.
The number on the right grip panel match the serial on the grip frame and the barrel.

 

[Dave T]

My opinion is you have a fine revolver there and it is as strong as any newer Model 10. In fact, as to quality I would rate your's superior to most guns made a few decades later.

I agree with Saxon Pig about ammo. Any factory 38 Special ammo will be OK in that M&P, including today's rather anemic +P.

Like all other opinions, this one is worth what you are paying for it, i.e. the price of asking your question on an internet discussion forum.

Good shooting and enjoy your "new-to-you" old revolver.

Dave

 

[rigrat]

Thanks Dave I kinda feel that way myself about it. You guys have the experience hence why I like asking you guys. But I'm new to the Smith game but am loving every new acquisition I make.

I now have this M&P Skinny 4", a M10-9 skinny 4", M64 snub and a m60. Really hoping to find a deal on a M10 HB 3" and 2" barrel, one day.

 

[Hondo44]

Ok here are the pics of the grip panels you can just see a slight imprint on the right grip and just feel a slight bump to the top of the screw.
The number on the right grip panel match the serial on the grip frame and the barrel.

It has the flat head screw (compared to the other 'domed' head screws); correct for the Magna stocks.

Here's the speed hammer, the 1st short throw hammer, narrow width (.265") on fixed sight guns and wide spur (.375")on target guns as shown; used in between your transitional and your M10-9:

 

[Oyeboteb]

do not use 'Steel Wool' and Oil for removing small rust spots.

Use 'Bronze Wool' and Oil.

Steel Wool will erode the Blueing. Bronze Wool will not ( unless one rubs with enormous and lengthy vigor, anyway, or even then...)

 

[Art Doc]

Nothing in a post-war example should be old enough for concern. I have the same gun made 1942 and I fired hundreds upon hundreds of +P and hotter loads through it.

As for cutting it up, don't. First, you can buy a 3" round butt M10 for much, much less than you will spend on ruining this nice old revolver. Always better to buy the gun you want rather than try to make something else into what you want. It would also be a shame to ruin this one. Not collector grade condition, but still a nice gun as is. Don't muck around with it, please.

 

[824tsv]

"Use 'Bronze Wool' and Oil."
Very good advice, if you don't have any bronze wool, you can find it at most Marine Equipment retailers. Get the "fine" type. I get my supply at West Marine. It works like a charm on small rust areas.

 

[JP@AK]

Jack that is what I was trying to figure out if the parts used to make this revolver were parts post 1930. I was concerned about what SaxonPig said about the heat treatment before 1930.

Two comments:
1. SP has now clarified for you that your postwar gun is perfectly safe for the use of modern, factory loaded .38 Special ammunition. I agree with him.
2. Heat treatment on the cylinders (the part that counts) goes all the way back to September, 1919. So that is not an issue at all on postwar guns.
Regards,
Jack

 

[JP@AK]

Ok here are the pics of the grip panels you can just see a slight imprint on the right grip and just feel a slight bump to the top of the screw.

These photos are very helpful! Thanks.
Your revolver has the flat screw and the panels confirm that it is original. After the war, the M&P revolvers were shipped with Magna stocks. Prewar variety was used first, then the early postwar variety, like yours. But the rear sideplate screw was still domed, so the fitter would put a dimple in the right stock panel to accommodate the head of the screw, allowing the panel to lie flat on the grip frame. By the time your revolver came down the line, they had started putting a flat head screw in that position, so the problem went away. This was a less expensive solution (more efficient) than dimpling each set of stocks!

The number on the right grip panel match the serial on the grip frame and the barrel.

Great! That's how we know these stocks came with the gun. Back in those days, each set of stocks was hand fitted to a particular frame. That's why they put the serial number on the right panel. Before the mid-1920s, it was written with a pencil. During the '20s there was a transition period when some fitters were still writing it with a pencil and others (I assume the newer hires among them) were stamping it. Eventually, they were all stamped. With the advent of robotics and mechanization, the practice petered out and stopped altogether sometime in the 1970s.
Thanks for your assistance in my research. I'll be adding this gun to my spreadsheet. Could you please send me a PM with the last two digits of this gun's serial number?
Jack

 

[JP@AK]

rigrat
On the bronze wool and oil matter, I completely agree with those who urge against the use of steel wool. No matter how fine it is, it is still too hard to be used on bluing. Don't do it. Use bronze or copper.
But here's my addition to the mix: gun oil is fine, but if you can get some Kroil, it will be even better. The liquid is easiest to use in this context, but Aero Kroil works too, if that's all you can find. My preferred combination for rust removal on blued guns is Kroil plus fine bronze wool.
Regards,

 

[rigrat]

Thanks to all of you guys! I could have never found the wealth of info that I found here about these handguns.

I am glad to hear she is as good to go as my 10-9 because the 10-9 is one of my favorite and most accurate revolvers I own. I hope the M&P starts a little competition with the 10-9 for the most accurate.

I just love these old Smith revolvers especially the 38's and police variations. Doesn't do anything for them but it neat to have the Department stamp and ser#on them.

And a big thanks for letting me know to use Bronze wool in my cleaning of the rust. I sure would have messed that up as I was thinking it was steel wool.

Going to try and shoot it today and will post the results.

Thanks again to all that helped!

 

[Oyeboteb]

"Use 'Bronze Wool' and Oil."
Very good advice, if you don't have any bronze wool, you can find it at most Marine Equipment retailers. Get the "fine" type. I get my supply at West Marine. It works like a charm on small rust areas.

Easy to get on ebay also, or from 'Brownells' where one can shop without having to leave one's chair or desk.

Perfect for Night Owls!

I got mine on ebay and it was just a couple bucks.