please school me on trigger weights

[olympicmotors]

Alright , I have thought about this for awhile , so I hope this is not a completely stupid question.

It seems most all J frames ( including my 640 pro ) have very heavy trigger pulls. I have practiced dry firing ( with snap caps ) almost every night for several months now and, it has gotten noticeably smoother, and maybe a little lighter, but it still is not nearly as light as for instance my daughters pre-1990 model 10.
It also is not as light as a Ruger LCR.

But that's just an example of a couple of revolvers, It is nowhere near as light as my striker fired Kahr PM 40 ( and probably not as smooth either ). Nearly all striker fired semi-autos have considerably lighter triggers than my 640.

I understand they are completely different platforms with Pre-tensioned strikers partially cocked by the retraction of the slide, but my Kahr is not pre-tensioned very much ( most estimates will say between 10 - 20 percent.

Whenever I read posts of people putting in lighter trigger springs they begin to have problems with light primer strikes at some point. Why??? , the other guns I have mentioned do not have this problem. Why can you not tune a J frame to be just as light as my Kahr, ( around 6 lbs ) and still be reliable?

I also read about people putting in extra length firing pins in their J frames sometimes when they put in lighter trigger springs, this seems to help with the light primer strikes. Once again, why would a longer tip on a firing pin help if the old firing pin can still reach the primer?

Is this all just a question of complicated geometry with the trigger mechanism, or has Smith and Wesson purposely made J frame triggers heavy because they know people pocket carry them a lot and they feel it is a question of safety and liability?

Please do not misunderstand this post, I am not unhappy with my J frame trigger. Even if I felt I could lighten it and it remain reliable, I am not sure I would, the heavy pull is reassuring as far as safety is concerned.

I apologize , I know this is a long post, but did not know how else to phrase my thoughts.

Thanks

 

[Kernel Crittenden]

... is a question of safety and liability?

That's might be part of it. Add to that the J-frame uses a coil main spring and a lot of people claim it can never be made as light and smooth as a leaf.

Also, keep in mind, in double action a revolver has to do more than just raise the hammer and drop it. It has to rotate the cylinder, which contains quit a bit of mass. You can't just make that mass disappear. Comparing a revolver to a semi-auto is like compare apples to oranges.

Apex makes a nice J-frame spring kit for around $30. I put one in a M638 and there was a noticeable improvement, but the trigger was pretty good in that one to begin with.

 

[Rpg]

Contemporary j frames have less than ideal triggers.

Yours needs a trigger job by a competent gunsmith.

Some folks like to buy 'trigger kits' and swap out springs themselves. I prefer to let a good gunsmith do whatever he thinks appropriate to get the trigger I want which involves more than trading out a couple of springs.

 

[scooter123]

Another factor is the SIZE of the lockwork. Compared to the K, L, and N frame revolvers the J frame have smaller "lever arms" in the lockwork moving the hammer and springs. As a result the reduction in leverage means the double action triggers must be heavier. From some test results I've seen on this forum a J frame with a DA trigger weight under 10.5 lbs will not generate enough power to reliably ignite a primer.

 

[roland5color]

I have practiced dry firing ( with snap caps ) almost every night for several months now and, it has gotten noticeably smoother, and maybe a little lighter

Even though it's true that dry firing a gun will smooth out the action its not the only reason it feels smoother and lighter after several months. You finger and hand are now stronger and muscle memory for the revolver trigger is starting to set in as well. If you want to lighten the trigger but not cause light primer strikes just replace the trigger return spring with a lighter one and leave the main spring alone. This will insure the hammer still hits hard but will lighten your trigger pull. For the best trigger though as already suggested let a good gun smith work his or her magic on it.

 

[BigBill]

I been saying to lube the gun with a moly paste or anti-seeze.
On all the metal to metal parts on the trigger sear it will lessen the trigger pull and smooth it out. I also shunned my trigger and hammer to reduce the side play. Then lubed them with moly on the shafts too besides the sides were the friction occurs. Installing a reduced main spring helps too. All this work done by me makes my s&w revolver feel similarity if not better than my action on my colt python.

Some say the moly doesn't work. I'm suggesting to use the correct moly. I use the moly from www.tsmoly.com it's the ts-70 moly paste or anti-seeze.

Not the dry moly, not the moly chassis grease. Use the correct moly.

Apply moly then assemble. Install the snap caps and run the action. The moly will burnish into the micro metal pores. Moly actually wears against itself. Moly eliminates all wear, reduces friction, prevents galling, fights corrosion, doesn't attract dirt.

I apply moly to all my guns. My guns never leave home without moly in them.

Apply moly on revolvers.
On the trigger sear, pivot shaft, on both sides.
On the hammer sear, pivot shaft, on both sides.
On the trigger return spring/block.
On the lever that turns the cylinder.
On the cylinder stud.
On the star on the rear of the cylinder were the lever turns it.
On the pin connection on the main spring

On pistols

On the recoil spring.
Frame rails
Barrel bushing
Sear.
Barrel lugs.
A little were the hammer resets.
Trigger.

Try the moly on a bare 1911 slide and frame. Try it without moly. Then apply moly to both frame rails. Now cycle it by hand. Then check to see how much friction there is.

You don't need a trigger job just try the TS-70 moly.

 

[PA Guns & Ammo]

My 442 has a nice smooth DA trigger. It is not that heavy either. I should measure it and find out what it is.

James

 

[Biggfoot44]

What Scooter123 said about leverage inherent in a particular design. ( Also relates to long actions vs short , 6 shots vs 7,8,10, whatever.)

Internal friction is a black hole. Losses to rough internal bearing surfaces prevent all the forces originating from the mainspring being delivered to the primer.

Super slippery lubrication has been mentioned. That' one component of the whole equasion. But if the bearing surfaces aren't smooth and properly mated, the pull will still be uneven and inconsistant , just uneven and inconsistant within a lighter poundage. Smoothness can come from simply shooting it a lot. Or by fryfiring it a lot. ( And both of those also develope muscle memory , and tone finger muscles.) A 'smith who knows what he's doing , and understand your parameters can hurry the process, or deal with a trigger that is really, really bad.

As much as I apreacate a good DA stroke , weight per se is at the bottom of the list. I'd rather have a 14lb that was smooth , and consistant over the whole range of motion , than a gritty and unconsistant 6lb .

 

[chief38]

For some reason the newer J Frames seem to have a much stiffer trigger pull than older ones. My newest J was manufactured in 1994 (I prefer the older Smiths) and so I have not paid all that much attention to newer guns. You might try lightening up the Rebound Spring to 13 pounds which I find is still very positive and reliable but is a much improved pull over the Factory spring. YMMV. I personally would not go lighter than that in a carry gun because you always want a fast and positive trigger return.

 

[jrandyh]

Have a competent gunsmith do a trigger job on them. I have never had it done on a J frame as their triggers have never really bothered me. I had my first 19 done by the armorer of our county sheriffs office as I was in the LE field also. It was fantastic. Interesting one of you mentions about getting you S&W almost as nice as a Python. I think a S&W action blows away a python especially a hood one even from the factory. I had a python several years before my first S&W. Bought it in 77. I thought it was the bomb. It find turned to stack up done but still. I was going through qualification my first time at the academy and the Python went out of time. One of the instructors lent me his 19 with a trigger job. It was unbelievable. First thing I did was trade the python and get a 19 and had a little work on II. Few years later I hit the itch for another Python. Bought it and two diamondbacks. Dint keep any of them a year as they couldn't you h my triggers on my Smiths. Pythons are beautiful guns and extremely accurate but seem to lend theirselves to the SA shooting crowd from my observations and I later became a LE instructor for 10 years as part of my job. I shot POC for a few years and had a fabulous Ron Power custom built on a model 10 frame. I never saw a Colt used to build a gun. Give me the S&W anyday.
JR

 

[bigmatt17073]

-snip-
From some test results I've seen on this forum a J frame with a DA trigger weight under 10.5 lbs will not generate enough power to reliably ignite a primer.

In my own test sample of two that has not been my experience. My 642-2 Talo came from the factory with a 8.5-9lb trigger pull. It has never ever failed to ignite any primer on any defensive or range ammo I have used. The 642 Talo edition is a Performance Center model that has had some factory trigger work done to it. I installed some Apex (or were they Wolf?) reduced power hammer and rebound springs on my Model 37, and that has never failed either. DA on that is around 8-9lbs and the SA in under 3lbs.

 

[Kernel Crittenden]

I'm suggesting to use.... ts-70 moly paste....

I got no doubt it's everything you say. I'm looking for a good place to buy some, cuz I'd like to try it. However, I've got one issue. I looked at the web site and they say it's good to 0F. That could be a problem here in America's Dairyland and worker's paradise.

Say you leave your gun in the car outside overnight (I don't). In the winter the temps frequently dip below zero. That could be a problem. I've had guns freeze up before due to improper lubricants (semiauto shotgun). Even a "gummy" action could cause weak primer strikes and misfires.

Might get some TS-70, apply, put the gun in the freezer, see what happens with some primed empty cases.

 

[olympicmotors]

Very interesting posts everyone. Thanks for the information.

Does anyone have any thoughts on an extended length firing pin improving reliability on a gun that has a lighter than factory trigger spring?

 

[snowman]

Very interesting posts everyone. Thanks for the information.

Does anyone have any thoughts on an extended length firing pin improving reliability on a gun that has a lighter than factory trigger spring?

Sir,

I installed reduced power springs on a 686 about ten years ago, and a C&S extended length firing pin. At least on that pin, what makes it effective, in my view, is the shape of the tip. Hammer force is the same for one pin as it is for another. But the factory pin has/had a hemispherical tip, and the C&S extended pin has/had a cone-shaped tip, which comes to a point. This takes a little less hammer force to dent the primer to a sufficient depth to set it off. It therefore compensates for the reduced force produced by the aftermarket springs.

I can't recommend the C&S pin, though; it's too soft. I used snap caps in the gun and they flattened the tip. Now I have to replace it. I'm going to take a look at the Apex version and possibly buy it.

Best wishes,
Andy

 

[deadear dan]

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this man intentionally altered his weapon by lightening the trigger pull beyond what the manufacturer determined was safe." Nothing in more pathetic than an a lawyer with no case, this card WILL be played if you lighten your spring in a SD gun.

 

[Rick_A]

I gave up on such things long ago. Improving my trigger finger worked best.

 

[NYlakesider]

I got my first J frame in early 70s (model 60) It had a stiff trigger pull which I improved somewhat.

The man that taught me about Smith revolvers was the armorer for his over a 100 man cop shop. He told me why that Smith purposely makes the trigger heavy on their small guns was because that they were small enough little kids would not have the strength to fire them. I also heard that from a LGS owner way back then also.

To be honest I do not know it that was the truth or just a rumor going around, but I do know that any J frame I have ever handled had a real stiff trigger.

 

[HarrishMasher]

I have installed an Apex Trigger Kit in 5 of my J Frames. The kit comes with a longer firing pin in addition to the springs. The kit is simple to install and it shaves about 4 lbs off the pull. Every gun I have done this to feels like a new gun when I am done. I also lube and polish the internal parts as well while I am in there.

I have fired thousands of rounds combined in these 5 guns with Apex Kits and have not had anything resembling any type of failure. Every time I have pulled the trigger on any of these guns, they went bang.

I have two J Frames that had trigger work done by an excellent local gunsmith known for his trigger jobs. I think my guns with the Apex Kits and my polish and lube jobs have nicer triggers. Several of my shooting buddies think the same thing in blind tests.

Apex kits are good to go and anyone who owns a J Frame should install one. It is the best $30 you can spend on your J Frame. $30 transforms a brutally heavy, and often gritty, factory trigger into a fantastic light and smooth trigger that rivals the work of the best gunsmiths out there. Do it!