Point Shoot - Outdated and useless?

[scooter123]

Some guns, like my 3rd gen work quite well, at least for my hands. I'm sure it is different for each person.

This is probably the most critical feature for point shooting, you have to train with a specific firearm or platform that has common pointing characteristics. Quite simply you have to know how YOUR gun points in YOUR hand AT AN INSTINCTIVE LEVEL. It's why I only carry one gun. It's also why all of my handguns have very similar pointing characteristics.

Now, about "point shooting". My reading has led me to believe that this definition is much too broad and we shooters really need to come up with some clear terms that describe various form of point shooting. Quite simply, shooting from the hip is NOT the same as shooting with your arm extended.

If you arm is extended I think it's best to describe this as Target Focused shooting and I can testify from experience that there is little to no loss in accuracy when using Target Focused shooting. However, if you train in this method, in time you'll find there is a big gain in your rate of fire. With Target focused shooting you focus on one point on the target and use what can be seen in your perpheral vision and in the line of sight as a guide to pointing the gun. Now for why this can improve your rate of fire. If you focus on the front sight you will instinctively chase that sight when the gun recoils. This means that as you bring the gun back to target you also have to find the target point. Finding that target point takes TIME. It can take enough time that an opponent might possibly fire 5 shots to your one. The way I was trained, you pick a spot on the target, focus only on that spot, and when the gun seems in line you pull the trigger and repeat. Try it sometime and you'll be very suprized at how quickly you gain in speed with little effect on accuracy. In my case it took just 1/2 hour of training and I cut my split times in half and didn't increase group size at all.

With a moderate amount of practice this method is good enough to hold to 5 inches or less at 30 feet with a split time ranging between 3/10 and 1/2 second. I've also found that the more range time I put in, the faster I can shoot while maintaining acceptable Combat accuracy.

The second type of point shooting is what I would suggest be called Index Shooting. That is either shooting from the hip or from close retention. Personally, I don't think this is a good method for anything more than near contact distances. While there have been, and are now shooters who can hip shoot a small target at distance, the single common feature of those shooters is that they have expended 10's of thousands of rounds downrange gaining that skill. IMO what's being taught today just won't work well in a real life setting at more than 5 to 10 feet. What is being taught is to position the gun against your body in a specific "index" position. This means that you have to assume a VERY specific posture and foot placement to "index" that gun. That aint gonna happen in Combat because you'll be moving. IMO, If you are facing an opponent within 10 feet, forget about indexing and rely on instinct to shoot from the hip, then move for seperation while using the recoil to assist in bringing the gun up to an extended position. If you really know how your handgun points you should be able to hit the body at 10 feet, however with most pistols today that shot will be lower than expected. Todays handguns don't have enough rake angle on the grip for natual hip shooting unless you've practiced a LOT. BTW, the old P-08 Luger had enough rake to the grip that it was a very natural hip level pointer, so do revolvers with a grip adaptor. Glocks are also sort of good hip pointers. However, good hip shooters require more practice for accuracy in an extended position because they tend to "point" high.

Now for how to determine if a particular gun "points" for you. In the extended postion it's very easy to do. Unload the gun, triple check that it's unloaded with nothing in the chamber, then pick a target point somewhere in your peripheral vision. Without looking at that target point aim the gun at that point. Then turn your head without moving the gun and look at where it is sighted. Then look at a target point, close your eyes and aim at that target point, then open your eyes and check where it's sighted. If in both cases you find it's sighted nearly dead on, you have a "natural pointer" in your hand. If it's off a bit and you want to keep that gun, repeat these exercizes as you learn how to compensate for a minor fault in point. In most cases the fault will either be high or low. If you find you are pointing left or right, changing to a grip with a smaller or larger circumference can help bring it on center. Practice can also help correct for a minor defect in windage pointing, however if it's severe you may want to consider shopping for a gun that has a wider or narrower grip.

For hip level pointing it gets a bit more complicated. Ideally you find a range that allows you to practice hip shooting. Bad news is those ranges are few and far between. Second best answer is to purchase a laser bore sight and put it in the barrel with a touch of tape to hold it there as you move the gun. Then close your eyes, aim at a target point, open your eyes and see where it's pointed. Keep practicing with this and you can learn how to point well from the hip. NOTE, make sure you remove that bore sight after EVERY practice session, forget it just once and you'll blow up your gun.

 

[tops]

Survival Point shooting - YouTube

I would like to see that done with a baby Browning or a vest pocket Colt. Larry

 

[Out West]

I made friends with a interesting fellow at my gun club. By interesting, I mean he was in the special forces of another nations armed service. He exposed me to point shooting. Amazing what he could do at short range with just about any pistol. Now when I go to the range I always try to work in some point shooting practice. I have to do it on the sly as the RO's don't really appreciate the style.

Out
West

 

[wharvey]

Second best answer is to purchase a laser bore sight and put it in the barrel with a touch of tape to hold it there as you move the gun. Then close your eyes, aim at a target point, open your eyes and see where it's pointed. Keep practicing with this and you can learn how to point well from the hip. NOTE, make sure you remove that bore sight after EVERY practice session, forget it just once and you'll blow up your gun.

Instead of a laser bore sighter do a google search for SureStrike Laser Training Bullet. Midway also has them. When the firing pin strikes the bullet it emits a short laser beam which is recorded on a target. Expensive in the the system cost about $150 but would be a great training aid for point shooting.

Way back when before guns were taboo I had a toy 1911 that shot a beam of light when the trigger was pulled. It came with a target with a light sensor. The opening was about an inch in diameter and when the light hit it the target would ring a bell. It only worked at across the room distances, which is plenty good for defense shooting, I soon got to where I didn't have to use the the sights to hit is almost everytime. I think that is why I can shoot 1911 or guns with the same grip angle by point shooting so well.

Wish they were still available as they were much cheaper than the laser bullets.

 

[cshoff]

Survival Point shooting - YouTube

I would like to see that done with a baby Browning or a vest pocket Colt. Larry

Yes, there is absolutely nothing practical, tactical, or even acceptable about that shooting "method". That type of grip takes every good attribute about a proper grip and flushes it down the toilet. It is nothing more than a gimmick, and seriously flawed one at that.

 

[M1911-66]

In competition point shooting isn't used because the difference between hitting the x-ring and a 10 is a big thing.

careful there. While point shooting may not be useful in bullseye competition, bullseye isn't the only type of competition. In action shooting (e.g., USPSA, IDPA, etc), target-focus shooting is often used by competitors for close targets.

I believe that Rob Pincus (http://www.icetraining.us/) also teaches a form of point shooting.

 

[okjoe]

Results of gimmicky shooting

Here's a pic of a few targets showing the results of my gimmicky shooting. It really is as easy as just pointing your finger and pulling the trigger with your middle finger.

Usually use a new-and-different-to-me rental, and shoot as fast as I can point-n-pull the trigger. The targets at the top right and on the bottom are marked as the first strings of the day. Also, a year had gone by since my visit to the range and shooting at the target on the top right.

And I usually stick a plastic index finger rest on the frame to keep it in place and away from the slide.

 

[Titan]

I get a hoot out of watching the old TV series 'Highway Patrol' from the late fifties.

Broderick Crawford carries and shoots a snubbie and always shoots from waist level. He's routinely dropping the BG from 50+ feet away.

 

[okjoe]

10-4

However, and with all due respect to MR. gravely voice:

1. If you are going to be shot and or killed, per USA statistics, there is an 80% chance that it will occur within 7 meters.

2. In a real life threat situation, due to the activation of the SNS, you will lose your near vision. so you will not be able to focus on the sights. They will be blurry.

3. And in the NYPD's study of 6000+ Police combat cases, Officers with only a few exceptions fired with the strong hand.

So, if you want to train for self defense, train at less than 7 meters, learn how to shoot without using the sights, and shoot one handed.

10-4, or per John Wayne - that is all.

 

[cshoff]

Here's a pic of a few targets showing the results of my gimmicky shooting. It really is as easy as just pointing your finger and pulling the trigger with your middle finger.

Would you like for me to compare some targets from myself and others who actually hold the gun with a PROPER grip?

Usually use a new-and-different-to-me rental, and shoot as fast as I can point-n-pull the trigger. The targets at the top right and on the bottom are marked as the first strings of the day. Also, a year had gone by since my visit to the range and shooting at the target on the top right.

You are going to try to give advice on defensive pistol training yet you allow a year to go by between your trips to the range? Sorry, but that doesn't do much for your credibility.

And I usually stick a plastic index finger rest on the frame to keep it in place and away from the slide.

LOL! Yeah, this right here pretty much says it all. Any shooting style that requires the shooter to install a specialized "finger rest" on the gun just so it can be operated is NOT practical and certainly not conducive to use under severe stress. Again, this is nothing more than a gimmick, and a dangerous one at that. Your vulnerability to disarming attempts with this type of grip are exponentially higher than with a proper grip on the gun.

 

[okjoe]

P&S is brain dead simple, can be learned with little or no training, and maintained with no or minimal practice.

The target showing the result of my first string of the day after a year away from the range, attests to that. Also, when I shoot I shoot as fast as I can point and pull the trigger.

Here's a link to YouTube video - shooting one handed
Point Shooting - One Handed - YouTube

........

The finger rest is not required to use P&S.

It makes correct index finger placement mechanical and automatic. And it helps to keep the index finger away from the slide when shooting rapidly and the gun is bucking and jumping in your hand. It also helps in supporting the gun, as it rests on top of the index finger.

According to the literature, in a life threat situation you will have a crush grip on your gun, and that will play havoc with a traditional grip.

With a crush grip, your index finger won't be held aloof from the gun for squeezing the trigger smoothly back until each shot breaks. And your thumb won't be positioned along the side of the gun but not pressing against it.

Your thumb, which is higher up in the hand, will press against the gun and push it over to the right. And the index, middle, ring, and little fingers, which are lower in the hand, will pull the gun down and around to the left. As such, shots will go low and left unless a counter measure is employed.

With P&S, you get a strong and level shooting platform. It is made up of the natural pincer of the thumb, web of the hand, and the index finger, and the ring and little fingers add tenacity to it.

The result is a strong four fingered grip, not your weak three fingered marksmanship/range grip.

You can squeeze the bejeebers out of the gun, and all you will do, is strengthen your grip. Front punches can be made, and the gun and forearm can be used as a crude battle-axe.

Also, when the index finger is extended along the side of the gun, it will help "lock" the wrist and strengthen the grip, and improve recoil control.

 

[GeorgiaShooter]

Actually if you never train and you can hit consistently in center mass without retaining any skills, I'd say that's a pretty awesome technique, although I am probably in agreement, for me, I will never put a piece of trim on my gun and shoot with my ring finger. I can demonstrate with my guns why this would not be good and even unsafe "for me". At the same time if someone can stand on their head and shoot flies off a water tower, more power to them. It's not a contest, you just have to kill the bad guy. I just practiced point shoot again today and MAN it is deadly effective and fast as lightning, with or without lighting, and it's not fast, it's INSTANT results. Unless some X Navy Seal commando ranger berets come rob me at the ATM or convenience store, I'm going to be almost impossible to defeat. Recently watched about a 100 close shootings on videos caught on tape. Not one of them so far used sights or advanced techniques. I'm also learning I can be mobile with PS and stay locked on target like a tractor beam, freagin magic if you ask me.

 

[Kanewpadle]

If I carried a gun for self defense I would NEVER admit not going to the range for a year!

I don't agree with your method, if it works for you then more power to ya.

The draw stroke and grip should be the same as aimed fire each and every time. The presentation may or may not be the same.

Your targets illustrate the difference in accuracy between point shooting and aimed fire. Anyone that claims pin point accuracy while point shooting is either grossly exagerating or should be on TV with Bob Munden or Howard Darby.

The idea of point shooting is to put shots on targets fast because you don't have time for aimed fire. It was never meant to replace aimed fire nor was it meant to be as accurate.

 

[ogilvyspecial]

I wasn't going to get involved in this thread but felt the need to put my 2-cents in.

I have been shooting guns since I was 5 years old (1963) and a proponent of Point, or Instinctive, Shooting since 1976 so I've been around a lot of shooters in my time.

Because we have a pistol range in the back-yard I've been teaching quite a few family & friends how to shoot, especially since Michigan became a "shall issue" state back in 2001.

In all my time being around shooters, and teaching people how to shoot I've seen them do some unorthodox things but have never seen anybody try to pull the trigger with their middle finger.

To me Point Shooting's strong point is that it's easily learned & retained and uses the body's natural instincts when under pressure. It would seem that at this point in time that if pulling the trigger with the middle finger was in any way "natural" I would have seen someone try it by now. Especially when teaching those who had never fired a gun in their life, heck some had never even touched a gun before the day they showed up here.

Because of this experience, the middle finger method, which may work for some, kind of defeats the whole "natural, instinctive" aspect of Point Shooting........

 

[okjoe]

Mention of using the middle finger on the trigger can be found in books dated: 1804, 1810, 1816, 1829, 1835, 1870, 1885, 1898, 1900, 1903, and many military manuals published in the 1900's. Many of the books in the 1800's deal with rifles.

This language is from the first manual on the 1911 that was published in 1912.

..."(3) The trigger should be pulled with the forefinger. If the trigger is pulled with the second finger, the forefinger extending along the side of the receiver is apt to press against the projecting pin of the slide stop and cause a jam when the slide recoils."

That exact or similar language, is found in manuals published in 1915, 1917, 1918, 1920, 1921, 1922, 1925, 1926, 1927, 1929, and 1941. And I am sure there are others that I am unaware of.

If the technique was unknown and not used, there would be no reason for the US Military to caution against it's use with the 1911 in different military manuals published during 28+ years.

The technique has been known of, and used for 200 or so years now.

The following is from a review of the Mauser C-96 "Broomhandle" Machine Pistol by David M. Fortier. In it, he said that the C-96 was extremely popular in china from the early 1900's up through the 1940's and beyond.

"....Special commando units were armed entirely with the C-96, and later the selective fire variants, as well as a large beheading sword carried in a leather scabbard on their back. Recognizing the Mauser's weak and strong points, the Chinese developed the following technique for using the C-96 and later the 712. They would hold it sideways (what we would today refer to as "Gangbanger style"), with the index finger lying on the magazine well pointing at the target, and pull the trigger with the middle finger.

IMHO, that many do not know about it in the US and/or think it is weird, is very reasonable since the 1911 was the only standard issue sidearm of US forces.

And for 70+ years our military forces were instructed to NOT use it with 1911.

The Soviets used a simple two pronged clip to keep the slide stop pin of the Tokarev TT-33 in place. The TT-33 was similar in design to the Browning model 1903, and 1.7 million TT-33's were produced.

The 1911's slide stop was not modified. And as such, our military forces never had the option of using P&S which is a deadly technique for shooting in CQB situations where we now know that in most all cases, the sights are not or can not be used.

..........

Here's a pic of Ruby Ruby whose is off to the left of and in front of Oswald and the cop who has Oswald's left arm.

Here's one just after Ruby shoots Oswald who was killed. Note the unorthodox middle finger sticking thru the trigger guard.

The following is from John Minnery's 1973 book: Kill Without Joy, which is not a read for the weak of heart or squeamish.

"One of the best visual representations of an assassination that I've ever seen is the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald by Jack Ruby.... He's using his middle finger to squeeze the trigger and his index finger, the normal shooter's trigger finger, is pointed right at his target. He shoots where he points. This method is not too well known in the States but the method was SOP with wartime SOE and SIS agents in Britain...."

 

[GeorgiaShooter]

That's a nice way to burn the flesh off your finger there with a revolver. I've seen that injury more than once. It's not pretty. Ruby must have had the 1st finger down on the frame or he would have gotten it toasted a little bit. The bird finger is the longest, heaviest and strongest finger for sure, and not surprised someone would use it. But it's also equally strong at reenforcing your grip.

Here's my issue with the middle as a trigger finger, when I hold any gun this way I'm forced to put the middle bird finger into the trigger guard to get a stable grip. If I run the index down the side of the gun and I can't effectively hold my trigger middle finger outside of the trigger guard without feeling like I have a half-assed grip on the gun in general. I can never feel totally safe with this method.

Maybe it's just my hand but this also rides my flesh up higher on the rear of the gun to a point I'm much more likely to loose some flesh with an automatic. I also noted on a website how they illustrate a S&W bodyguard as an ideal gun for this technique but when I use this method the gun is actually so thin profile the index does not actually ride down the right side of the gun naturally, it bends inward then up the side of the gun due to the wider hand compared to the thinner grip. Not all that natural at all...

This is a more detailed reason why I tried but then abandoned the middle trigger finger method. Back to my standard way of using the index finger for the trigger is very natural, safe and works on every gun I own consistently. I mean this respectfully of course, I don't have enough knowledge to comment other than stating what works best for me, but that is why.

 

[old curmudgeon]

This is okjoe's MO. He signs up on some gun forum and starts spouting his ridiculous theories, which he continues to do ad nauseum. He does that until he gets run off. He was "5shot" on northeastshooters.com. He left when everyone laughed at him and his handle is now a joke in and of itself.

He's just a troll.

You might should, before you comment, read some of the material he references.

There are also lots of pictures of old dueling pistols being held using the forefinger to point.

There are many more than he mentioned with photos.

By the way, I tried it. Worked OK with a S&W 9mm and a Colt Commander, but even though I own them, I don't care for them.

I am a revolver person.

On my model 10 and my Redhawk, my finger is too long and those powder burns hurt.

I have not yet tried it with my Blackhawks as I am getting along fairly well with a convention hold.

By the way, there are also photos of shooters using the technique shooting birds with shotguns and military personnel using it with automatic weapons.

Note I said photos, not third handed hearsay.

By the way, one fault I found with the method is that the second finger is not as sensitive on the trigger as the forefinger and I got a couple of shots off before the gun was correctly on target. I am sure that one could learn to control that but I went back to standard so it did not matter.

I believe the reason for this is that in a normal hold, we try to grip as tight as we can with all fingers except the index finger so it is natural to grip with that finger even though it is on the trigger. I am sure if one worked on it one could change his grip, but I went back to the revolvers.

Never ridicule. One can always learn.

 

[okjoe]

Thank you for your response old curmudgeon.

Would appreciate a link/s to some of those other old books and photos if available.

Walter J. Dorfner SSgtVSP, the long time lead firearms instructor for the Vermont SP, experimented with and wrote a paper on his experience with P&S when he was Vice Chair of the Use of Force Committee of the Vermont Criminal Justice Training Council, at the Vermont Police Academy in Pittsford, VT. Walter died in 2001.

He thought P&S would be the next step in the evolution of survival shooting.

I made a digest of it, which he approved of, and we both had it published in Police publications.

The digest gives a detailed description of what AIMED Point Shooting or P&S is, how and why it works, and it gives his experience with it.

Though the shooting method is not new, it is not widely known or accepted in the gun community as a survival shooting method.

The shooting method was not taught at the academy. However, it was presented by Walter to new VSP members.

Walter used the term Point Shooting in his paper to identify the method of shooting. I have taken the liberty to add the word AIMED in front of it, as the method employs the index finger to aim the gun, which is more than just Point Shooting. Point Shooting is normally understood to be shooting sans sights, or unaimed shooting.

 

[old curmudgeon]

Thank you for your response old curmudgeon.

Would appreciate a link/s to some of those other old books and photos if available.

Walter J. Dorfner, the long time lead firearms instructor for the Vermont SP, experimented with and wrote a paper on his experience with it. He thought it would be the next step in the evolution of survival shooting. He introduced it to new troopers, but it was not part of the official cirriculum taught at the academy.

I made a digest of his paper, which he approved of, and he and I both had it published in Police publications. Walter has since retired and died. RIP

A couple of years ago I got interested in it and found many links but did not save any of them.

I did see the ones posted here. I also saw some old dueling photos, so the idea does go back many many years.

Regardless of method, one needs to think about what the conditions will be in a close encounter. Usually at night, usually in very poor light, maybe with your glasses still on the night stand and your eyes blurred from sleep....so sights are not going to be of much help.

So I would suggest trying several methods and use the one that works with you and your weapon.

Frankly, I don't care one bit how competitive shooters shoot other than to figure out if their methods will work for me.

Competitive shooters go to a meet all keyed up. They are definitely wide awake and sharp as a tack.

They are doing something they have done a thousand times even though the course will be different in the current event, the general scheme of things is the same.

I will be awakened, I hope, by a noise at the window or the door. Maybe even later than that after the BG is in the house.

Or in a parking lot at night it will be someone who looked OK until that instant when he is really close.

Not planned, adrenalin not up. Thinking about something else,

If in the house, glasses on the nightstand, vision blurred, starting from deep sleep...

It will be a one time experience like never before.

Entirely different from a shoot meet.

I am not, but a really good shooter who is much younger than I should be really good at all types of shooting, whether aimed fire or point blank instinct acts of desperation.

 

[okjoe]

As to the grip M1911,

P&S uses the natural pincer of opposing thumb and index finger to grasp the gun, along with the ring and little fingers that add tenacity to it.

Ergo, it a four fingered grip that provides the shooter will a strong and level shooting platform as described above.

It's also a natural and good way to pick up and hold a mug of coffee or beer.

It is not your weak three fingere competition marksmanship range grip where the thumb is held along side the gun but not pressing on it, and the index finger is held aloof from the gun so it can independently and smoothly squeeze the trigger back until the shot breaks.

And which, with all due respect, according to the literature is not used in combat.

In combat, per the literature, you will have a crush grip on the gun, so your competition/range grip will become moot.

The rub in terms of life or death defensive shooting, is that much of modern Police self defense shooting techniques flow from competition shooting techniques. And they are not like two peas in a pod. And thinking or saying so, won't make it so.

If they were the same, all the crooks would be dead, in hospital, or in jail. Police casualty rates would be going down. And the over 80 per cent miss rate in armed encounters, would not be proof that they are not the same. That is, unless hits don't matter in competition.

And who's to blame for this kettle of fish? The proven-in-competition shooting techniques which also are proven-to-fail-in-armed encounters, or the trainers, or both?

If you have any pics or videos of the grip and techinique used by super shooters being used in combat and stopping/killing threats to police or others, trot em on out.

I would be happy to post them on a page on my web site that is waiting for one or more to be posted there. The page is empty and has been for several years now.

Also, I don't dislike the 1911.

I think the design is great except for the slide stop. A single stack design is superior to current hi-cap guns as it makes the gun easier to grasp and shoot. Of course, the caliber could be reduced to 9mm for easier shooting by most average folks.

Big fat grips and 40 cal guns are harder to hold and shoot accurately IMO.

That they are popular with the police doesn't make sense, because if you can't hit the target, it doesn't matter what gun your using.

If I were in charge of stuff, things might be different.

But I'm not in charge of much, except taking the garbage out, and adding TP to the TP holder when its empty or near empty.

Stay safe and relax.