Point Shoot - Outdated and useless?

PS

Something about old west style guns.....My Blackhawk almost touches my knee, everytime you bring it up from your side (aiming at your 03:00 or 09:00) that thing just seems to find the target itself.

Nothing for points but I'd bet my life on that 357
 
Point and shoot is the way to go, but you should also be proficient with sights. usually a shoot out is less than 10 feet.

The main thing is to use one carry weapon, which you are totally familiar with. I don't believe that carrying a revolver one day and a semi auto another day is a good idea at all, but I gather that most people switch up weapons all the time. It is not conducive to point and shoot. You need to develop muscle memory for the tool that you carry.

To the op you are doing the right thing. Don't let the"expert" instructors who have never been there or done that tell you different.

On the upside, paper targets never shoot back.
 
If a criminal is holding a gun to my childs head at 10m, I 'm not going to be point shooting.

If a criminal is running at me with a 10" butcher knife from a few feet away, I'm not going to be looking for that front sight.

You better be good at both...
 
If you want to learn good point shooting, read what Bill Jordan had to say about it. The whole purpose is speed, and the shot will need to be taken as soon as the gun clears the holster. Crouching and locking the arm straight out will take as much time as a good shooter needs to bring the gun up to eye level and use the sights.

Point shooting certainly has its place, but so do accuracy and proper trigger control.

Dave Sinko
 
Point and shoot is the way to go, but you should also be proficient with sights. usually a shoot out is less than 10 feet.

The main thing is to use one carry weapon, which you are totally familiar with. I don't believe that carrying a revolver one day and a semi auto another day is a good idea at all, but I gather that most people switch up weapons all the time. It is not conducive to point and shoot. You need to develop muscle memory for the tool that you carry.

To the op you are doing the right thing. Don't let the"expert" instructors who have never been there or done that tell you different.

On the upside, paper targets never shoot back.

Agree 100%. Pick one handgun and stay with it. Muscle memory is everything. When your pistol becomes an extention of your arm, it will save your life. Practice, Practice, Practice!
 
Question, I was watching this training session. Is this guy taking a very long time to fire at such close ranges? And is he jabbing his pistol exactly like Applegate says not to? It's looking to me like the term "point shoot" is very loosely interpreted by everyone but Applegate who is very clear, simple and precise.

Trea Israeli Point Shoot Training Krav Maga Houston Computer - YouTube
 
I'm no expert, and I'm sure there will be people who disagree with me, but to me point shooting means using a body index for aiming rather than a visual index. That means using your body as a way of lining up the gun to the target. I've never really considered Applegate's method, with the arm extended, as "true" point shooting as the gun is likely to be within your field of view. While your focus is on the target, it is still possible to get your gun at least roughly aligned visually; that's how I shoot when I have the gun extended like that. However, that's based on footage I've seen regarding the Applegate method.

As to the video, I wouldn't consider that point shooting. To me it looks pretty obvious that the shooter is visually aiming the gun, even if he may not necessarily be aiming with his sights. He does appear to be taking his time, but I don't know how much precision he's going for in his shooting.

That's aside from what looks like the shooter fumbling with the manual safety.
 
Thanks CO, I think the specific things that puzzled me was the demonstrations of what happens when you thrust a pistol forward like that, the barrel and point of aim dip down. Reason why they prefer you raise the barrel upward and shoot as soon as the gun comes up to the target with no hesitation. Or very very little. And he uses two hands even at super close distances. I guess I'm in your boat. Maybe I'm no expert, which might be a good thing, because that doesn't look like the right way to train your body since in a panic you will "really" be pushing that gun down and wont have a free hand to open doors, hold a flashlight, push or use for balance. I'm finding that using that left hand for balance in my crouch and one arm, I'm much more accurate and honestly already dramatically quicker delivery than this student is showing with this triangle two hand, jabbing, technique.

From my simple understanding the Applegate one arm method is the same as that square stance triangle he is using but only with the left hand removed. And I thought the most effective way was only bringing the left hand up and into the firing hand after you find yourself back at a certain distance 15-20 feet. Then at about 30 feet maybe begin to gain your composure more and transition to weaver sighted type of shooting.

At the distance this student has two hands completely extended and only 2-3 feet from the target, it seems they are very vulnerable to the attacker reaching the gun, or even dropping down lower and shooting from the hip and literally clobbering this guy.

I'm no rocket science but it seems like there is a lot of instruction on the web that is less effective than it could be. Or at least these seem to break a lot of fundamentals Applegate really stresses, even up to the 1998 presentation I may have referenced, which lays this stuff out masterfully.

Hey this is the time to think and analyze and I know this is nit picking a little, but the devil IS in the details.
 
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With the advent of competitive combat/practical pistol shooting in the 80s it was quickly realized it was possible for a skilled shooter to actually visually track the front sight through the recoil, conveying significant improvements in accuracy.

When I attended CQB School w/ 1st Group, the entire first week was spent in learning effective point shooting by participating in "dot drills". 9 three-inch dots of different colors on a target. Your command to fire was the Range Instructor calling the color dot you were supposed to hit, e.g. "Green!". If a color was called that wasn't on the target, you didn't fire. Eventually you started with your back to the target, color was called, and you turned and shot. The target was rotated every time so you couldn't memorize the location of the colors. If the shooter is tracking the front sight through recoil, the shooter is focusing on the sight instead of the target. That might be okay in competition shooting where the target is a piece of paper, but in the "competitions" I've been involved in, the targets were trying to kill me. I like to keep my focus on them. Point shooting remains a VERY viable method of engaging targets. "A" method, not "THE" method. There is no such thing as THE method.
 
As a poice fireamrs instructor and someone who has been involved in conflicts in some nasty parts of the world, I can tell You that point shooting is a VERY important skill to have.

1). Reactive , defensive shooting will almost always start VERY close. Point shooting will be the way to go .

2).In case things turn into a firefight, You will need to know how to do both.

Learning pont shooting is just as important as learning to use sights.

ALSO. Shooting with one hand is just as important as shooting with both hands on the gun.
 
Question, I was watching this training session. Is this guy taking a very long time to fire at such close ranges? And is he jabbing his pistol exactly like Applegate says not to? It's looking to me like the term "point shoot" is very loosely interpreted by everyone but Applegate who is very clear, simple and precise.

Trea Israeli Point Shoot Training Krav Maga Houston Computer - YouTube

That "crab walking" stuff cracks me up!

Point shooting is, in the most simple definition, any time you are focusing on the target and not the gun. There are various degrees of peripheral indexing to the gun, but if you are focusing on the target (which 98% of people will in a gunfight), you are using point shooting whether you know how to or not. That's why the statistics of police shootings are so dramatic regarding the number of missed shots. They have traditionally be taught sighted shooting but then find themselves point shooting in gunfights and missing.

It's an interesting subject. Lots of fun to do and most people can get pretty good at it out to ten meters or so.

p.s. The guy in the video is not fumbling the safety, he's racking the slide. The old Israeli style of shooting required carrying with an empty chamber. It's no longer the way they do things now that they've, more or less, standardized their sidearms to the Glock platform.
 
Several times at work , we did an "Active Shooter" exersise.
A team had go and look for an active shooter. The TEAM was on the offensive. THE SIGHTS WERE USED. The distance was longer and they were LOOKING for the target.

In a defensive , reactive shooting, You will not have to react to something 25 or 50 yards away. It will be close and FAST.

Being able to draw and fire and hit something REALLY fast is what You would need to do. Draw , point , shoot.

If Your threat takes cover and makes distance , then You will be using Your sights.

This is from experience......
 
You guys are pretty awesome, very mature people it seems. I really am learning a lot. So at the range today I was limited in how much I can drill but I did single then double point shoot drills at 10 feet, then tried 4 zipper shots up the middle about 5 times. Then I began backing the target. For me, not being as professionally trained, I transitioned to a weaver stance at about 20 feet or so. My results were pretty good today but not as cocky good as my last time out. I was definitely hitting the man target in the middle but not quite the vertical stripe I thought I would have. On the sight shooting I was actually able to get very good accuracy even making me confident to get more head shots. Shooting the 357 in the snubby LCR was really torturing me so I'm thinking about backing down to 38 special 158 grain which I can shoot dead on, and not low.

I'm getting there but today humbled me back down a notch. I need to work on everything.. MORE. Thanks again all. I'm going to hit the donate button and try to support the site better. I'm also going to back off on my posts for a little while and work on this advice given. More reports when I begin seeing improvement worth noting.
 
p.s. The guy in the video is not fumbling the safety, he's racking the slide. The old Israeli style of shooting required carrying with an empty chamber. It's no longer the way they do things now that they've, more or less, standardized their sidearms to the Glock platform.

I re-watched the video. What I saw was not him racking the slide but manipulating the thumb safety. He does it twice, the first time right after he racks the slide at the beginning of the video. I think the second time happened at around 0:14-0:16. Though I admit he may have just been making sure the safety was off. I couldn't see clearly enough to determine if he tried to fire, failed, then manipulated the safety.
 
Thought I'd put some numbers in this just for the heck of it.
One of the drills I do is to have two paper plates set up about 3 yards apart with me standing somewhere between 3 and 5 yards from the slightly closer target. When my timer beeps me I draw from concealment and fire one shot into each plate as quickly as possible, and still be reasonably sure of hitting the target. I've been doing this using both hands and getting a flash sight picture using the front sight. I repeat this until I've fired 20 rounds.

The first time I tried this my average time for my first shot was 2.29 seconds and the second shot was 3.05 seconds.

The previous last two times gave these timings:
first shot average 1.99 and 1.96
2nd shot average 2.72 and 2.85

Today I went out and did the drill, this time using only my strong hand and pointing with no sight picture. I hadn't shot this way in years exept when playing with my SA .22. My times were:
first shot average 1.73
2nd shot average 2.68

So I trimmed a couple of tenths of a second off of my first shot and slightly improved my second. I guess harder to recover from recoil using only one hand. Another thing to consider is that up to now I've just stood there waiting for the timer. Today I was scanning the ground for fired brass so actually had to look up and find my target after the timer. A bit more realistic as to being surprised.

What is most interesting is that when pushing for speed I generally miss a couple of shots. Didn't miss any this time. In fact my groups on each target were slightly smaller than usual. I think I'm going to have to add this to my routine, specially since I won't have to worry about having enough light to use my sights at night.

I sure wouldn't shoot this way if in a match but I think it is a very viable method.
 
I re-watched the video. What I saw was not him racking the slide but manipulating the thumb safety. He does it twice, the first time right after he racks the slide at the beginning of the video. I think the second time happened at around 0:14-0:16. Though I admit he may have just been making sure the safety was off. I couldn't see clearly enough to determine if he tried to fire, failed, then manipulated the safety.

OK! I see what you're talking about now. He is definitely manipulating the thumb safety.

Also, I have no clue what the idea is behind that crab stance jazz they are doing but it looks like a sure way to get yourself shot. Move in a natural manner! Shoot fast, with or without sights depending on the distance to your adversary. Very dynamic stuff.

Point Shooting Progressions DVD Preview with Roger Phillips - YouTube
 
One video that kinda sums it up as well. And lays down some facts that are hard to ignore.

Survival Point shooting - YouTube

Using your middle finger to work the trigger? That's goofy and over-complicating the subject.

If you use a gun that doesn't fit your hand well, that method is not going to work worth a flip. You can try it with some of your guns and see. Grip the gun, and with your eyes closed, point to an object with your gunhand index finger. Now, open your eyes and you'll see that the axis of the bore and the index finger are often at very divergent angles.
 
I agree, the middle finger idea is strangle to say the least. May work but I shoot wheelguns too often to work on it.

As to finger angle, at the range point shooting should be used it isn't that bad but as you say, some guns to present that problem. Some guns, like my 3rd gen work quite well, at least for my hands. I'm sure it is different for each person.
 
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