Point Shooting for Home Defense

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Jeffersonwasright

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I'm new to larger caliber handguns, so please bear with me if this topic has been discussed to death. Since purchasing my S&W SD9VE, I've been grappling with the various issues of how best to use it for my purpose. I bought it for home defense, so I've been considering all the "gotchas" associated with various scenarios of home intrusion. To make a long story short, I can't use the sights well, and I'm not a fan of lasers, for several reasons. In fact, it's not clear to me that sights of any type - laser or mechanical - are the most effective means of dispatching a threat in my home, particularly if the situation unfolds at night, at close range, and the intruder is armed.

Earlier this evening, I stumbled across the YouTube video below. It's a short tutorial on point shooting, and honestly, this looks more appropriate to me than all the gadgets and target shooting techniques I've seen to date. What are other, more experienced, shooters' opinions of this simple method? Is this what I should be spending my time and money practicing when I go to the range?

Survival Point shooting - YouTube
 
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Point shooting can be effective at about 3 paces or less for most shooters, and quite a bit farther for those who are willing to practice with the gun they intend to actually use. Grip angle, how you grip the gun, and body position are some of the things that determine how effective you will be at point shooting....Again, lots of practice needed.

BUT, you will be at your most accurate by using the sights at anything past powder burn ranges, and not really slowed down by much when you figure a "hit" with sights is a lot better then a quick miss.

Night Sights, a weapon light, and a good laser like the Crimson Trace series are not gimmicks, they are tools that can and will give you an advantage if you practice with them, and learn to use them properly.

We used to be issued Colt 9mm sub guns. During qualifications, we had to collapse the stock, and place the butt on the center of the chest, firing three round bursts at 3 yards, "point" style. Amazing how many guys would miss a full sized combat target at that range......

Larry
 
Plenty of people have done good work on the appropriate uses of point shooting; however, I have not heard anything positive about this particular form of point shooting that you've linked to. For those who haven't looked, this system involves pointing your index finger along the frame and pulling the trigger with your second finger. On my two firearms (BHP and G17L), it feels clumsy, reduces control, and I believe it can contribute to accidental discharges.
 
shooting to live,kill or be killed,& quick or dead 3 books that discuss point shooting in depth. old but good reads.
 
I'm a big fan of bent elbow point shooting, in certain applications. The gun is under control, close to the body. It is also less likely to be seen, should that be a factor. Longer distance, aimed fire & less likely in many defensive scenarios. Of course one should train for everything.
 
I'm at the age where I can't see the front sight on a handgun either, so I have practiced point shooting extensively up to ten yards for the past few years. You can do good work without the sights, but it will take several thousand rounds before you become proficient and you will have to practice continually to keep the skill.
 
My suspicion is that if I'm in a real red-alert, DefCon One, dung-in-the-ventilation-equipment situation, point shooting or contact shooting may be my only option. I know, I know, situational awareness at all times--I try to do that. But even well-trained LEO's can be blindsided, and I have 75-year-old eyes, ears and reflexes. When I can (rarely due to ammo and range time costs) I practice aimed fire. But reality is that there just may not be time if push comes to thug.
 
POINT SHOOTING

at night outdoors or in a dark house, and hands on ranges you're not likely to be able to see the sights or maybe even the target clearly. so aimed fire is pretty much not gonna happen. when you see cops on tv clearing a room with the gun extended at full arms length all I can think of is how easy it would be to simply push the gun aside, let alone disarm. a gun held close to the body would be hard to see and suicide to grab. to be able to practice enough to be any good at point shooting you are gonna need a 22 unless you are rich or get free ammo. about lasers and gun lights I guess I'm old school and don't want to give anyone something to aim at. the big old mag light held above & over the left shoulder ready to club anyone that may pop up unexpectedly works for me. my 2 cents.
 
There are differing methods and opinions on point shooting. I suggest finding out yourself at a range.

I consider point shooting as this; any time I don't/can't use both the front and rear sights together.

While no expert my experience with point shooting has been good.

The bottom line is that you may be forced to point shoot whether you like it or not. So it should be practiced.

A common sense approach is needed. If forced to shoot from the hip, you had better be close to your attacker. If simply extending your arm in front of you using the front sight as a reference, this can be done at a greater distance. Those distances differ among us. So again, find out for yourself.
 
Thumbs-Forward Handgun Grip | Shooting Illustrated

The Thumbs Forward grip has been taught for several years, and it has the same purpose, but can be used with all handguns, since the index finger controls the trigger in the usual manner. The Thumbs Forward Grip uses thumbs for pointing, rather than using the index finger. The whole emphasis of this method is to minimize muzzle flip and recoil, allowing the operator to place multiple quick hits on target without having to delay because of muzzle flip.

I was introduced to the method in 2005 by professional military and federal LE firearms instructors during a two week course. While the grip seemed difficult to maintain the first day, by the end of the two week, 5,000 round training, it seemed natural. It takes lots of repetition to over ride earlier learning and replace that with new muscle memory. The instructors videotaped each one of us on our first day using our old grip, and then followed up at the end of the second week to show us how our rate of fire and muzzle control had improved. At the end of the training, it was amazing how quickly each of us could rapid fire six or more rounds of standard handgun ammo, keeping the muzzle locked on target. We trained out to seven yards. It also greatly improved our ability to transition and engage multiple targets.

My agency teaches all its new recruits this method for close quarters combat shooting, and I regularly practice out to 10 yards using this method. I've never tried the technique questioned by the OP, but the standard use of the index finger to control the trigger in the Thumbs Forward Grip would seem to be more natural than learning how to use the middle finger in that fine motor skill role.
 
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I started point shooting in earnest last year after strong-side shoulder surgery. A very generous Forum member gifted me with a pair of PS videos featuring Col. Rex Applegate, and those PS techniques are very easy to practice. I believe Louis Awerbuck is a modern day firearms instructor who promotes PS as a valuable skill set. I have found that PS is very effective at reasonable SD/HD/CQC distances as the firearm becomes a natural extension of one's arm and torso.

The Colt New Agents in 9mm and .45 ACP are available with "trench sights", making both these models ideal PS pistols. Additionally, snubnose revolvers are essentially PS devices due to the shorter barrels and low profile fixed front sights.

Is PS ideal for every scenario? No, especially in low light or near darkness. But for many shooting situations, the instinctive motions of PS are fast and effective.
 
There is still a need to learn trigger control so the gun stays pointed where you need it regardless of sights or not. Dry fire against a lighted background will teach you grip & trigger control so you can use both point & sighted fire. An intimate familiarity with you handgun is needed to operate when you don't have time to think your way through the motions.
 
I practice sighted shooting, point shooting and body indexing. Ya never know what situation you'll find yourself in. I use the laser on my snubby to practice point shooting during my dryfire practice. I point the gun at something, activate the laser and see how close I am. I don't do the index finger along the frame thing with my snubby, my wife likes it when I keep the blood on the inside.
 
I'm not one of the more experienced shooters but from what I've been able to learn, in a crisis, sight shooting goes right out the window. There's target practice and then there's defensive practice. You really won't have much time to squint, aim and fire and neither will the assailant(s). You may also be moving or even shaking at the moment of truth which means that the point and shoot method would be the best option. You're defensive grip is also better than the cup and saucer method and will give you better control of your weapon.
 
When using a revolver the thumb forward method will do the same thing for your thumb that shooting with the middle finger will do to your index finger. I saw a so called experienced shooter do that one day. He didn't look experienced hopping around and holding his thumb. One of dads friends was shooting a short barrel auto loader with his middle finger and shot the end off his index finger. Larry
 
tops said:
When using a revolver the thumb forward method will do the same thing for your thumb that shooting with the middle finger will do to your index finger. I saw a so called experienced shooter do that one day. He didn't look experienced hopping around and holding his thumb. One of dads friends was shooting a short barrel auto loader with his middle finger and shot the end off his index finger. Larry
Click to expand...

I regularly shoot a full sized 1911, Sig P229 and P239, Ruger Vaquero, and a 642 snubbie using the thumbs forward position. In my experience, and those that trained me, the Thumbs Forward Grip works equally well with revolvers and semi-autos.

When firing the small J-Frame 642, my non-dominant thumb rests at the edge of the cylinder face, low on the frame, resting just above and slightly forward of the trigger guard. No problems, with the leading thumb in that position; however, if you're foolish enough to place the thumb up high, next to the cylinder face and forcing cone, that would certainly burn your thumb. I'm pretty sure that's the mistake your "experienced shooter" made. You saw a guy apply the grip inappropriately.

Take a look again at the photo illustration with the article I attached to my earlier post...Where does the forward, non-dominant thumb rest in that pic? It rests low on the frame, a little above and forward of the trigger guard.
 
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OK, so I went to the range today and shot about two boxes of various 115gr rounds through my SD9VE. The sights were covered by tape. Using a two-handed grip, pointing the gun with the index finger proved slightly more accurate than with the index finger on the trigger. However, shooting one-handed - a scenario I believe might be very likely when defending against a home invasion - the difference was much more pronounced. In fact, even though this was the first time I've tried point shooting, I was able to consistently place 95% of the rounds in the 2/3 scale upper body target at seven yards using the index finger to point. That was shooting fast, bringing the gun up to the target and pressing the trigger immediately. This more than meets my requirements for home defense, especially with 16 rounds in the mag.

Thanks for everyone's comments! :cool:
 
I practice both sighted shooting and point shooting when at the range... and my wife does the same.

Any of us may need it some day. Familiarity breeds familiarity.
 
i thought point shooting was a bunch of shenanigans...until i actually tried it at the range. It felt real awkward but I have to admit at 5-7 yards I hit a lot more than I thought I would.
 
I was exposed to handguns when point shooting was still taught. It was taught in law enforcement circles during the 1930s and 40s, and I understand that the legendary Jelly Bryce and Clarence Hurt of the FBI used to go around providing training on the subject (my late grandfather) received training from Bryce and Hurt back in approximately 1939 and put it to good use one afternoon in approximately 1944-45). Point shooting is only good from about three yards and in, while with practice you could extend it out to five to seven yards. Point shooting takes a of practice! I read Bill Jordan's book, "No Second Place Winner," found I was pretty fast drawing from a holster to get a torso hit at three and five yards, but it still required A LOT OF PRACTICE.

Point shooting still requires good trigger management. You can jerk and flinch whether you're coming up on your sights, or shooting from the hip.

You say you have problems with the pistol sights. I don't know exactly what you mean, but I take it to mean either you need to attend some professional training (even if all you have the gun for is home protection - especially that); or that the sights are of such that you can't see them. If the latter is the case, you should investigate some aftermarket examples that might work better for you.

There are two videos floating around that I watched this past weekend: Ron Avery on the pistol draw stroke, and Robert Vogel on the F.A.S.T pistol course. Both shooters use sights.

The late and great gunfighter and pistol trainer Jim Cirillo described his first gunfight as a member of the legendary NYPD Stakeout Squad in both his book and his training videos. Mr. Cirillo stated that he very clearly saw the serrations of the front sight of his S&W Model 10 as he was lining up his sights on what small piece of head that was exposed by one of the armed robbers he was fighting. Two trigger presses and he thought he had missed but turned his pistol on the other two and administered two shots toward each of them. In the aftermath, the first target was found behind the object he was hiding behind - no longer among the living. The other two were hit (don't recall if they were killed or just required medical attention). While other shooters may not remember the sights coming into use during a gunfight, it is quite possible that they used them without realizing. Even some of the point shooting techniques utilize the front sight for indexing more than anyone cares to admit.

Get training before you decide to approach a technique on your own.
 
Friend of mine that owns a gun shop bought one of these.
LaserLyte ? LTS Reaction Tyme Target

We took turns at about 10 yards. Just bringing the gun up from a relaxed position and hitting this target was easy and really opened my eyes. This target is so small that even a miss was close enough.

It proves that relying on hand eye coordination is a good thing. ;)
 
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