KKECK5
Member
I think the reason they started us at 50 yards was to quickly show us that we weren't as good as we thought, ( a legend in my own mind) and it was just a waste of ammo.
Point Shooting for Self Defense - Your Experiences
- Thread starter RichardK
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photoman
Member
Shoot! When talking about Ed McGivern and revolver shooting, ANYTHING is possible.
amazingflapjack
US Veteran
I like what's been said, and I would add that a target that gives some reinforcement when hit has been a positive element in all hand gun shooting for me. Gongs or old aluminum frying pans hung by wire are fun as well.
sipowicz
Member
Now you tell me.....
mc5aw
Member
Richard ...
If you've ever fired an AOW shotgun you'll know this comparison is dead-on.
Have you tried shooting a Colt New Agent (9mm or .45) with the gutter sight? It's an enlightening experience and takes a bit of getting used to since most experienced shooters are conditioned to work a firearm's front sight. It requires practice, but pays dividends once you're comfortable doing it.
My slingshot doesn't have sights and I'm pretty good with it. Just ask the raccoons who visit every night. 
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Does anyone recall Darrell E Mulroy?
His passing was too soon! Besides his radio and other pursuits, he offered training in the Twin Cities area as PlusPTechnology.com (plusp.com - plusp Resources and Information. This website is for sale!)
Site is now defunct.
He survived more than a handful of shootouts, second probably only to Jim Cirrillo in the modern era. As Jim spoke (paraphrase) of seeing each serration on the front blade of his Model 10, Darrel would tell you he never saw the sights in any of his fights. One of the big principles he tried to drive home was to get a gun that FITS you, or try and make it fit you.
The Gun Zone -- Darrell Mulroy
If you search THR and TFL , I think you will find his posts there as 'pluspinc'
His passing was too soon! Besides his radio and other pursuits, he offered training in the Twin Cities area as PlusPTechnology.com (plusp.com - plusp Resources and Information. This website is for sale!)
Site is now defunct.
He survived more than a handful of shootouts, second probably only to Jim Cirrillo in the modern era. As Jim spoke (paraphrase) of seeing each serration on the front blade of his Model 10, Darrel would tell you he never saw the sights in any of his fights. One of the big principles he tried to drive home was to get a gun that FITS you, or try and make it fit you.
The Gun Zone -- Darrell Mulroy
If you search THR and TFL , I think you will find his posts there as 'pluspinc'
jlrhiner
US Veteran
There is an excellent little book called "Shooting to Live" by Fairbairn and Sykes. It goes into great detail to explain the training synapse to use with a new shooter for point shooting. The two fellows that authored it were cops in Hong Kong and were personally involved in a couple of hundred (that's right, several hundred) shootings. And I believe it was written in the 20's.
It's very informative and easy to follow. I highly recommend it.
It's very informative and easy to follow. I highly recommend it.
ogilvyspecial
Member
Even though I've been point shooting since the mid-70's
I routinely use Crimson Trace Grips as a training aid.
I'm a night person and we live way off the road so I have the opportunity to
walk around the yard & barns at night and draw my gun and point it at "whatever",
then fully squeeze the grip with my middle finger to activate the sight to see how I did.
Sometimes I activate the laser about half-way through my
arm motion so the laser is on just before I get on target.
Hello Kelly Green, Silversmok3 and old cop,
All of you have excellent points regarding point shooting and self defense.
I was at Bullet Trap yesterday and took my P238 380ACP to try one-handed double-tap point-shooting at 7 yards. It went remarkably well.
I was able to straighten my arm sufficiently in the stall to practice bringing it up straight (couldn't crouch down, bench is too high). I shot a double-tap (ok at this range) as soon as the barrel was in my lower periphery vision on target center mass.
Sometimes I bent my wrist instead of holding it straight. This resulted in groin shots on the "bad guy" target. Still effective.
I need to concentrate on keeping the wrist locked and the barrel in line with the arm.
My son asked me why I insist on shooting with one hand. I keep telling him there will be a time when you can't use both hands or one arm is disabled or you need the other hand to do something else while you're firing. If I have time, I will use the Weaver, two-handed stance. If I can shoot effectively in self-defense scenarios with one hand, then it is a bonus when I can use two hands.
I also told him why do you think they call them "hand" guns instead of "hands" guns. He wasn't amused.
Next week, I take my Sig P220 Combat 45ACP for point shooting and the week after my 340PD.
Cheers,
Richard in Plano Texas
USAF (Retired 1971-93)
All of you have excellent points regarding point shooting and self defense.
I was at Bullet Trap yesterday and took my P238 380ACP to try one-handed double-tap point-shooting at 7 yards. It went remarkably well.
I was able to straighten my arm sufficiently in the stall to practice bringing it up straight (couldn't crouch down, bench is too high). I shot a double-tap (ok at this range) as soon as the barrel was in my lower periphery vision on target center mass.
Sometimes I bent my wrist instead of holding it straight. This resulted in groin shots on the "bad guy" target. Still effective.
I need to concentrate on keeping the wrist locked and the barrel in line with the arm.
My son asked me why I insist on shooting with one hand. I keep telling him there will be a time when you can't use both hands or one arm is disabled or you need the other hand to do something else while you're firing. If I have time, I will use the Weaver, two-handed stance. If I can shoot effectively in self-defense scenarios with one hand, then it is a bonus when I can use two hands.
I also told him why do you think they call them "hand" guns instead of "hands" guns. He wasn't amused
.Next week, I take my Sig P220 Combat 45ACP for point shooting and the week after my 340PD.
Cheers,
Richard in Plano Texas
USAF (Retired 1971-93)
slodraw
US Veteran
Hi everyone. Just my two cents. Lots of good information on here. When I was in the army 67-70 when we were on the range learning they taught us point shooting basically. They gave us BB guns. Had someone stand 3' away off to the side. They put a metal disc on their thumb (about the sixe of a quarter) and flipped it into the air. You would raise the gun following the disc whlie looking at the front sight. It sounded crazy when they explained it but we were hitting 8-9 in a row within a day. Then we were on the rangge with M-14's using the same method out to 100 yards. Farther out we used kind on a combination between that and the sights. You didn't have much time if you used the sights though. I've been trying to use this with my 9c just need more practice. Keep your arms sraight. needs more work but it does work. Good shooting everybody.
Chuck1217
Member
I must not be following correctly- using sights wouldn't be point shooting...altho I couldn't hit a coin in the air with OR without em.
Chuck1217
Member
Ayoob discusses this in his book COMBAT HANDGUNNERY 6TH EDITION. Was going to try and scan it to attach here, but it's just too long.
ogilvyspecial
Member
There's a term I've heard more than once dealing
with Point Shooting that goes something like this.
While Point Shooting isn't sighted fire, it is aimed fire.
with Point Shooting that goes something like this.
While Point Shooting isn't sighted fire, it is aimed fire.
COL Jagdog
Member
The majority of POST courses now use the point method from the 2 and
4 yard lines -- sights from 7, 15 and 25 yard lines -- it does work but you have to practice it and practice it very well for it to work. I just completed the Louisiana POST course and we had a very good instructor
who instilled that technique in us.
4 yard lines -- sights from 7, 15 and 25 yard lines -- it does work but you have to practice it and practice it very well for it to work. I just completed the Louisiana POST course and we had a very good instructor
who instilled that technique in us.
Stu Honea
Member
I got dead serious about point shooting or threat focused shooting about 1970. It's a learned skill just like every other shooting technique. It's a rare event for me to use sights for anything inside 21 feet and even farther on many occasions.
F&S and other types of point shooting techniques are the only way to fight with a pistol,IMO.
A red ramp,or gold bead,or night sight,or a fiber optic sight are all good for indexing the end of the barrel in different lighting conditions,but are not necessarily required.
Indexing off the nose makes it all but impossible not to get good hits repeatedly in rapid fire.
Point shooting skills,once understood and developed are easily transferable to aerial shooting.
We get laughed at a lot on the bad *** forums by the latest whiz bangers,but these people refuse to even try to learn these skillsets.
The hottest item these days is RDS on pistols.That junk,just like lasers,will only get in your way and slow you down at true defensive shooting distances.Promoters of the red dots on pistols are getting rich from the enterprise,but there is really nothing new under the sun.
Point shooting works in fights period. It worked for the likes of Mr. Bryce,Col. Askins,Jordon,and hundreds of real gunfighters. It's insanely fast.It's more than accurate enough,and it will keep you alive. Your bullet will go where your eyes look. It requires training from someone who understands the concept,but once you get it,you'll never let go. You are focused on the threat(target) and your peripheral vision does the rest.
F&S and other types of point shooting techniques are the only way to fight with a pistol,IMO.
A red ramp,or gold bead,or night sight,or a fiber optic sight are all good for indexing the end of the barrel in different lighting conditions,but are not necessarily required.
Indexing off the nose makes it all but impossible not to get good hits repeatedly in rapid fire.
Point shooting skills,once understood and developed are easily transferable to aerial shooting.
We get laughed at a lot on the bad *** forums by the latest whiz bangers,but these people refuse to even try to learn these skillsets.
The hottest item these days is RDS on pistols.That junk,just like lasers,will only get in your way and slow you down at true defensive shooting distances.Promoters of the red dots on pistols are getting rich from the enterprise,but there is really nothing new under the sun.
Point shooting works in fights period. It worked for the likes of Mr. Bryce,Col. Askins,Jordon,and hundreds of real gunfighters. It's insanely fast.It's more than accurate enough,and it will keep you alive. Your bullet will go where your eyes look. It requires training from someone who understands the concept,but once you get it,you'll never let go. You are focused on the threat(target) and your peripheral vision does the rest.
Stu Honea
Member
Sorry,sir,but I beg to differ.YOU could and can do it.
If you have normal functional motor skills it will not be a problem. Don't sell yourself short.This is something that is within the grasp of anyone who wants to learn it.
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Stu Honea
Member
There's a reason why so many people are in love with fixed sighted S&W revolvers,too.
Stu Honea
Member
Matt Tempkin is an excellant instructor and shooter in the F&S and Applegate and has actually trained under Applegate in years past.You'll have made an excellant choice in studying his works.
Stu Honea
Member
SR,you're the RIGHT guy to comment on it.
I wish we could get more people away from the gadgetry and get them started using these life saving techniques.Your input is excellant.
I mentioned in the previous post the RDS's and their current popularity. I think that this is a step in the direction of losing sight of the mission of the defensive pistol/revolver. These are great on a carbine or rifle,but the defensive pistol is a different animal all together.We need to keep our priorities in order and use these various weapons in the roles they are intended for and stop trying to make sonething they are not and were never intended to be. Understanding that marketing these concepts brings in money and moves the game,but the proven techniques are what saves lives.
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Hello All,
Just watched that DVD on point shooting:
"SHOOT HIM TO THE GROUND Tactical Point Shooting For The 21st Century" by Matthew Temkin
Learned quite a few things in the 1 hour 15 minute presentation, including the difference in using semi-autos and revolvers in close-up combat shooting scenarios.
Interesting drills were presented, but most cannot be done in an indoor range. You need an open, outdoor range to adequately practice most of the drills. I did the best I could with an unloaded (thrice checked) 340PD in the living room dry fire point shooting inanimate objects.
The extreme close quarter drills were interesting; probably more suited for LE and military.
The DVD definitely shows how to point shoot with more than just a straight arm and one hand. It does emphasize one-handed shooting, but does not discount a two-handed grip when feasible.
Now to find a range which will let me do that type of rapid fire point shooting somewhere here in North Texas.
Richard in Plano, Texas
USAF (Retired 1971-93)
Just watched that DVD on point shooting:
"SHOOT HIM TO THE GROUND Tactical Point Shooting For The 21st Century" by Matthew Temkin
Learned quite a few things in the 1 hour 15 minute presentation, including the difference in using semi-autos and revolvers in close-up combat shooting scenarios.
Interesting drills were presented, but most cannot be done in an indoor range. You need an open, outdoor range to adequately practice most of the drills. I did the best I could with an unloaded (thrice checked) 340PD in the living room dry fire point shooting inanimate objects.
The extreme close quarter drills were interesting; probably more suited for LE and military.
The DVD definitely shows how to point shoot with more than just a straight arm and one hand. It does emphasize one-handed shooting, but does not discount a two-handed grip when feasible.
Now to find a range which will let me do that type of rapid fire point shooting somewhere here in North Texas
.Richard in Plano, Texas
USAF (Retired 1971-93)
Chuck1217
Member
I was just doing some self=deprecating humor. I'm sure just about anyone could do it with enough practice, and sounds like fun trying. But for now I need to work some other stuff. Thanks for the vote of confidence.
Stu Honea
Member
Gotcha,Chuck.
Richard,I didn't get that DVD from Matt,but I've seen some excerpts from it. The "zipper" is a great drill to run with a wheelgun or auto,and of course would be applicable in a close fast encounter.
One of my favorite things is running two guns on two targets simultaneously using peripheral vision to get good hits on both. Probably not very practical for real world in most cases,but you never know, and it's nice to know the ability is there.Plus it's just plain fun.Keeps your weak hand tuned,too.
What you are doing with the dry fire in the house is a great aid and a fast way to build on the hand/eye coordination,and muscle memory. My wife finally got used to it and doesn't duck now or cover her ears when I draw.
Shooting from retention,1/2 and 3/4 hip is an important part of the skillsets. Keep up the good work,sir.
Richard,I didn't get that DVD from Matt,but I've seen some excerpts from it. The "zipper" is a great drill to run with a wheelgun or auto,and of course would be applicable in a close fast encounter.
One of my favorite things is running two guns on two targets simultaneously using peripheral vision to get good hits on both. Probably not very practical for real world in most cases,but you never know, and it's nice to know the ability is there.Plus it's just plain fun.Keeps your weak hand tuned,too.
What you are doing with the dry fire in the house is a great aid and a fast way to build on the hand/eye coordination,and muscle memory. My wife finally got used to it and doesn't duck now or cover her ears when I draw.
Shooting from retention,1/2 and 3/4 hip is an important part of the skillsets. Keep up the good work,sir.
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I have had some training with a point shooting method. In what would be a self defense situation I think it is what you instinctively would do. Index your body toward the threat, elbows close to body, point your firearm and pull the trigger. You are going to hit the threat no doubt about it.
Knochen
Member
An alternative is to sight down the side of the slide rather than through the sights which gives a much faster POA. A trainer was telling me about this method, but before he could teach me, he moved away.
If you are confronted with having use your gun while defending yourself, you will probably have to point shoot.
And you may not even remember doing it.
We could discuss this for years. But the reality is that as concealed carriers, we are already behind the curve. Already behind the eight ball.
Before we draw from concealment, we must first indentify the threat and decide quickly if that person needs to be shot.
We don't have the legal ability to produce a gun in anticipation or preparation of a lethal threat. We must WAIT causing us to waste valuable time.
Whatever method of point shooting you choose, practice it because you WILL need it.
And you may not even remember doing it.
We could discuss this for years. But the reality is that as concealed carriers, we are already behind the curve. Already behind the eight ball.
Before we draw from concealment, we must first indentify the threat and decide quickly if that person needs to be shot.
We don't have the legal ability to produce a gun in anticipation or preparation of a lethal threat. We must WAIT causing us to waste valuable time.
Whatever method of point shooting you choose, practice it because you WILL need it.
Stu Honea
Member
Excellant,sir. You have just described what defensive shooting is all about.When we have to play catch up,point shooting is the life saving skill that will bring us home.Legally!
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